The Ej Meh Conundrum Attn: bcspace!

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

bcspace, Ej Meh is indeed a smart person of exceptional culture. You don't have to take my word for it, you only need to look at what we know from his period. They had art, religion, and society. They didn't have cities, or any domestic animals or plants. In every other way, Ej Meh is just as normal and clever as you are!

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

by the way, my own hypothesis does not have any "unsouled". It assumes, as per LDS doctrine, that every living thing has a spirit. In my hypothesis (read: not doctrine), preAdamite homo sapiens have spirits, but they are not the literal spirit children of God, but lesser spirits not capable of taking advantage of the available brain power; perhaps a plausible explanation for a quarter of a million years of homo sapiens without civilization.

To a lesser degree, instead of lesser spirits, I could go with an "uplift" via some revelatory or visitory process from advanced beings such as the Gods. More problematic as what happens to them who died before the Fall, but there is precedence in the arguments of Talmadge and BH Roberts regarding the 1909 statement till the 1931 statement.

I know you are a good person, bcspace, but you didn't address the Ej Meh Conundrum! Soul, or literal descendents, or dumber pre-Adamites, the problem remains. There can only be far, far, far more of whatever you choose to call them than of the descendents of A/E. Furthermore, paleolithic man is every bit as smart, (and it is possible the Neandertals were smarter than) as modern man.

[_bcspace]

If bcspace wants to say that Adam and Eve were the first to undergo some process that was later undergone by others,

And he doesn't necessarily.

No need to bend poor old 'descendants' out of shape just because people who actually did (unlike bcspace) believe that Adam and Eve were the sole original biological great^n-parents of all living humans used it in its normal sense.

Even if other pre Adamites came through the Fall and say, mixed with the children of Adam, it still could be true that we all literally and physically descend from Adam and Eve.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Even if other pre Adamites came through the Fall and say, mixed with the children of Adam, it still could be true that we all literally and physically descend from Adam and Eve.

No. No, it isn't possible. 1 breeding pair cannot overcome 2.5 million worldwide, and in locations already isolated after the end of the last Ice Age. Nope.

[_Drifting]

Even if other pre Adamites came through the Fall and say, mixed with the children of Adam, it still could be true that we all literally and physically descend from Adam and Eve.

True, but what if the Adam and Eve story is, as per the rib element, purely a figurative tale?

[_bcspace]

bcspace, Ej Meh is indeed a smart person of exceptional culture. You don't have to take my word for it, you only need to look at what we know from his period. They had art, religion, and society. They didn't have cities, or any domestic animals or plants.

In other words, you're probably taking more liberties with "complexity" than you ought as I pointed out.

I know you are a good person, bcspace, but you didn't address the Ej Meh Conundrum!

I think I did by pointing out how far he is from the beginning of the Neolithic era.

Furthermore, paleolithic man is every bit as smart, (and it is possible the Neandertals were smarter than) as modern man.

The same could be said in many senses of monkeys, horses, dolphins, and octopi.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

bcspace, the Ej Meh conundrum is not the problem of intelligent human beings 30 millennia ago. It is the fact that Ej Meh's descendents outnumbered A/E 2.5 to 1 and so we cannot possibly have been primarily A/E-ites.

by the way, you are terribly wrong about Ej Meh. The science is quite clear on this. I guess science doesn't agree with bcspace?

[_bcspace]

Even if other pre Adamites came through the Fall and say, mixed with the children of Adam, it still could be true that we all literally and physically descend from Adam and Eve.

No. No, it isn't possible. 1 breeding pair cannot overcome 2.5 million worldwide, and in locations already isolated after the end of the last Ice Age. Nope.

Sure it's possible. First, you don't know how many and which came through the Fall, nor do you know the location of Adam and his family. Plus, one can hypothesize that pre Adamites breeding with pre Adamites after the Fall die out possibility as a result of their children not getting the new spirits (because they didn't breed with the children of Adam) and therefore not being able to compete with the smarter more competitive homo sapiens or possibly as a result of God causing them to die out simply because their time is up.

Australia? The Bering Strait? One does not have to remove the Fall too far back to make it work. Or alternatively, one cannot discount the possibility of God leading a group of people. It's been done before.

So you see, all I've done in my hypothesis is simply accept science and looked to the doctrine as to what is possible and has been done elsewhere.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Sure it's possible. First, you don't know how many and which came through the Fall, nor do you know the location of Adam and his family. Plus, one can hypothesize that pre Adamites breeding with pre Adamites after the Fall die out possibility as a result of their children not getting the new spirits (because they didn't breed with the children of Adam) and therefore not being able to compete with the smarter more competitive homo sapiens or possibly as a result of God causing them to die out simply because their time is up.

It is impossible, my friend. We do know how many "came through" the Fall. About 5 million. We also know how many A/E-ites we had to start with, 2. There is simply no way, even interbreeding, the A/E-ites could have ever outnumbered the Ej Meh-ites. Where A/E were first is irrelevant.

Australia? The Bering Strait? One does not have to remove the Fall too far back to make it work. Or alternatively, one cannot discount the possibility of God leading a group of people. It's been done before.

These straits reflooded, stranding the Ej Meh-ites in multiple locations throughout the world about 18,000 years ago, well into the Paleolithic. Most remained totally isolated until modern times. I reject the idea that god "led" people simply to breed out the Ej Meh-ites everywhere without evidence. Besides the numbers still don't add up.

So you see, all I've done in my hypothesis is simply accept science and looked to the doctrine as to what is possible and has been done elsewhere.

You have rejected science! Totally! Utterly!

[_Chap]

My opinion is that it is unlikely [pre-Adamites] went extinct because modern homo sapiens do not appear to be descended from a single set of parents. So in order for us to be considered the descendents of Adam and Eve in some sense, they have to be the first spirit children of God to inhabit a homo sapiens body and/or the first to be uplifted.

Ah. The sense in which we are the descendants of Adam and Eve is ... that we are not in fact their descendants. Got it.

If bcspace wants to say that Adam and Eve were the first to undergo some process that was later undergone by others, there are some quite good words that convey that - like 'pioneers' for instance. No need to bend poor old 'descendants' out of shape just because people who actually did (unlike bcspace) believe that Adam and Eve were the sole original biological great^n-parents of all living humans used it in its normal sense.

Then:

If bcspace wants to say that Adam and Eve were the first to undergo some process that was later undergone by others,

And he doesn't necessarily.

No need to bend poor old 'descendants' out of shape just because people who actually did (unlike bcspace) believe that Adam and Eve were the sole original biological great^n-parents of all living humans used it in its normal sense.

Even if other pre Adamites came through the Fall and say, mixed with the children of Adam, it still could be true that we all literally and physically descend from Adam and Eve.

We have been through this to the point of boredom. Either you want to assert that Adam and Eve are ancestors (if not sole progenitors) of the entire human race or you don't. Which is it to be?

If yes, then you have two problems.

1. You will have to push Adam and Eve way back further that any accepted Biblical chronology in order for them to be progenitors of the long-isolated human population in pre-colonial Australia. You know this. I have brought it up repeatedly on threads in which you have posted. See http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/

2. You will have to go even further back in order to find male and female common ancestors for all present-day mankind in terms of current genetic science: but unfortunately Y-chromosomal Adam and mitochondrial Eve seem likely to have lived at quite different periods.