Male Mormons, Ex-Mormons, and Non-Mormons.

[_honorentheos]

Hi MsJack,

I'm going to say something that will be very unpopular but I'll own it since I think it's true. And I'll qualify that the original thread had already been edited by Cam prior to my reading it so there may have been more to it than I saw remaining.

When I read the thread linked to in the OP, my impression was that it wasn't a one-sided fight. You were giving as much as you got from Cam. I don't know what he said about your husband beyond the limited material still in the quotes.

But I found Stak starting the thread in your defense kind of a side-ways sexist thing to do. I mean, how many people took crap for defending Stem on the board? Or, to be fair, while I disagreed with Hoops I think he was well within bounds to point out how BrianH was being ganged up on and choose to jump in on his side to even things out as well. And was "jumped" for doing so.

So, to be honest I saw Stak's thread here as another example of the "high school clique" behaviour the board has been accused of recently. I read you and Cam as being equally boorish asses towards one another. And frankly, I see Cam as being the one who walked away the most honorably.

As you said above, on a message board gender, affiliations, and all the other labels we saddle one another with are generally meaningless when set on the scale beside one's thoughts, arguments, and (in this case) behavior. And, as you correctly say above, Stak was jumping in as your friend which is understandable if lop-sided in what was otherwise a more or less even, if pointless, fight that I personally held no interest in.

But the whole, "Males, etc. etc. etc." thing? Unless you hold some exception within your statement above for friends, it's as sexist and label-burdened as any other item brought up in this thread. Personally, I'd like to see every "poor little <whatever>" thread swept aside by what you mentioned above - the quality of a person's argument. I don't care what labels anyone has. But the labels regarding the "correct" way to think have become as insidious as any label on the board. And I think this thread is another example of such.

So, again, +100 to Liz for her moderation. +100 to Shades for seeing a reason to change a board policy and being flexible in the right kind of way to make it so. And +100 to Cam for being the better person. Because in my opinion he is. Based only on the actions and words shared in this and the other thread. No other labels needed.

[_MsJack]

honorentheos ~ Please, by all means, document where I "gave as good as [I] got." I documented Cam's string of attacks on me here. I'd love to know what exactly it is I did or said to provoke the words he had for me in those posts, because it's a complete mystery to me.

I don't know what he said about your husband beyond the limited material still in the quotes.

Then let me clear that up for you: he brought up the subject of my husband on the thread of his own accord and asserted I don't love my husband because of the critiques I post about Mormonism here at MDB and on my blog. (That he thinks my blog is primarily used for posting critiques of Mormonism is pretty clear and present evidence that he doesn't read my blog, but I digress.) He claimed that I am "bitter and hateful" towards my husband. He went on to say things like "I would hate her if she was my woman," "I don't know how he puts up with you," and "He must be an absolute pussy of a man." I never said a word about my husband on the original thread ("Antley: Book of Mormon and Racism"), so there was no reason whatsoever for him to drag my husband into the conversation.

[Note to moderators: I showed my husband what CamNC4Me said about him on the night that he said it, long before any of it was edited. So while I appreciate the idea of removing attacks on family members, since honorentheos is questioning whether what Cam said was really all that bad, I would appreciate it if you would allow my recollection of the remarks to stand.]

If that's really your idea of an "honorable" and "better" person, that sounds pretty darn twisted to me, but you're entitled to your opinion as much as the next person. Please bear in mind that if Stak hadn't started this thread, Cam's comments would still be sitting in Telestial unedited and I would no longer be posting on this message board. Who would you be calling the "better person" then?

I'll allow MrStakhanovite to explain to you why he appealed specifically to MDB men if he wishes. And I think everyone here knows that Stak is a friend of mine. But all of the commentators on the first page and a good number of the commentators on the second page are the people who viewed Cam's comments in their entirety, which you apparently didn't. If you really think that folks like Morley, Sethbag, Doctor Scratch, schreech, MCB, brade, Tator, Shulem and Chap only reacted the way they did because they're part of a clique with me, you really don't know any of us that well. Most of those names are people I haven't even shared a single private message with. They saw Cam's comments; they agreed that they were disgusting and wrong; they spoke out. That's all there is to it.

If you want to be the lone person who doesn't think viciously attacking someone's family members who don't post here is contemptible and inappropriate, that's really your call.

[_Drifting]

It seems to me that when people make attacks on the poster personally, it's usually because they've lost the debate and know it.

[_honorentheos]

Hi MsJack,

honorentheos ~ Please, by all means, document where I "gave as good as got."

A fair request. Second post in the linked thread has the following as a quote you provided and attributed to "Doctor ILikeToCallWomen'removed by myself for non-Terrestial content'And (Moderator Note) Edited due to in real life reference wrote:"

While I didn't see the actual information quoted prior to the mod deletion it wasn't so long ago that an incident occurred that highly suggests what that deleted information might have been. But regardless, whatever was shared included both comparable telestial content but it also crossed the line into in real life information requiring deletion. If the deleted information is the same information I suspect it was, then I have no problem seeing it as a full-forced attack on Cam comparable to what he said to you. Either way, it received the same treatment as Cam's abuse of your familial relationship. I don't see the honor in either action. Nor do I see much real difference between them. That's one example.

When I posted last night, essentially I was curious about something when I read your previous post. In it, you had suggested that Cam's friends had an obligation to call him out, even to "get in his face" when he behaved this way. My thought? So where were your friends? What obligations do they have?

I don't think what Cam did was honorable in so far as how he initially acted. But by comparison, I admire his stepping away, admitting fault, and signing off for a while. I can't say the same for your double-down post above. You don't have to like my view and I held no illusions on how it would be received. And, as I stated earlier, I knew it wouldn't be a popular thing to say when I posted. But really, do you honestly think an appeal that is essentially tu quoquo is justifiable?

If you want to be the lone person who doesn't think viciously attacking someone's family members who don't post here is contemptible and inappropriate, that's really your call.

Perhaps you'll see that not only do I not condon what Cam did prior to his apology and subsequent actions, but I don't make exceptions for a friend of the board. The above is missing the point. If I give Cam credit that you don't deserve yet, it's the difference in his understanding the inappropriateness of his own actions and you doubling down to defend your actions. That's essentially it. If I stand alone in doing so, I stand alone.

But I stand.

[_MsJack]

honorentheos ~ The recent conflict between CamNC4Me and myself began when I said this:

[Law takes precedence over religious freedom] [w]hen religious freedom becomes excessively harmful to others.

To which CamNC4Me replied:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXbwmINpGJA

She tacitly supports this.

That video leads to a black evangelical leader in Uganda spouting hateful propaganda against homosexuals via graphic, scatological descriptions of anal sex.

Is that your idea of "both of you are at fault"? Is that "giving as good as I got"?

I have no problem seeing it as a full-forced attack on Cam comparable to what he said to you.

CamNC4Me has previously informed participants of this forum that his real-life identity can be learned via search engines. I have never shared anything on this forum about Cam that cannot be learned via Google. If you want to believe that's in the same league as viciously attacking family members who don't post here and are not even involved, that's really your call, but I couldn't disagree more. And it was a vague, three-word reference at that, which made no mention of his family.

My post was edited and liz3564 called me out within an hour of its having been posted, to which I immediately replied:

I accept your ruling and will do my best not to mention events from Doctor CallsWomen[***]s' real life. I should have known better given your prior moderator actions on the matter and I apologize for needlessly making your day more difficult.

That is why my friends did not get in my face and tell me to knock it off. I had ceased the offending behavior at the very first person who spoke up against me. Please note that Cam's attacks on my husband all came after liz3564 had already intervened in his favor, edited my post, and I had acknowledged the wrongdoing on my part.

All that said, I meant what I said above when I expressed regret for posting the RL information in question. I was angry that Cam was viciously attacking me yet again when I had done nothing to him, worn out by three months of similar attacks from him, and I made a bad decision. I knew that the moderators would likely remove it given their past actions on the matter, and I hit "submit" anyways. I shouldn't have. And I hope that my friends do get in my face and tell me when they think I am out of line. I wouldn't be the person I am today without the help of good friends to tell me when I need to change something, and Lord knows I have a long way to go.

You don't have to like my view and I held no illusions on how it would be received.

What I don't like about your view is that you judged me without even bothering to learn everything that was said, nor do I like that you seem to think nothing of Cam's documented history of unprovoked aggression towards me. But most seriously, after all of your negative feedback, I still have no idea what it is that you think I could have done better---other than not doing what I acknowledged as being wrong long before this thread was created. All you've really done on this thread is to confirm to me what I've always known to be true: that when you get into a heated conflict on a message board or blog, you must not do anything even mildly wrong, even for a moment, no matter how viciously you've been attacked, or else someone out there will try to use that to argue "you're just as bad."

But so long as you're attacking me and not my loved ones, after this ordeal, can't really complain.

And, as I stated earlier, I knew it wouldn't be a popular thing to say when I posted.

Yes, and the clique is really burning you at the stake here. It's a wonder you've even been able to get a word in edgewise.

[_honorentheos]

Hi MsJack,

I'm aware of the posting history in the thread. I'm not sure what else there is to say about the back and forth, who's hit's where most below the belt, etc.

But it's led me to an interesting question, theologically, about forgiveness. Growing up Mormon, I am most familiar with the ideas of how Mormon's (I suppose it's best to qualify this as ostensibly) are taught that to fail to forgive someone places the greater sin on the unforgiving soul. Something about denying the atonement and what not.

So what's with the keeping score, the endless links to "Thou shalt not forget nor be forgiven" posts in the thread? It appears you don't see that as a form of attack but merely pointing out to Cam his just failings. As I noted in my previous post, it seems to be another weapon in a more or less two-sided personal conflict.

So what are your thoughts on forgiveness? Is there nothing wrong in keeping score like that? Honest question.

And, as I stated earlier, I knew it wouldn't be a popular thing to say when I posted.

Yes, and the clique is really burning you at the stake here. It's a wonder you've even been able to get a word in edgewise.

<smile> You and I know that's not how it works. It's ok.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hey honor,

I disagree with just about everything you've stated and this is why. Cam is a serial offender. He started with me years ago posting as Antischock8, calling me a cunt, telling me to wash the sand out of my vagina and referred to me as "pissflaps" more than once. That is just the tip of his stalkerish iceberg regarding his obsession with me.

I had him on ignore for well over a year and yet, I would see his nasty remarks about me in threads where I wasn't even posting. More recently, he took to posting images of "Snooki" from the show "Jersey Shore" in place of text.

Look, honor, if the sum total of a guy's "interaction" with me is personal attack , if the poster in question admits he does it while he's drunk, and if that same guy goes on to do the same with other female posters, he needs to be smacked down for it, because at that point I deem him a creeper.

If you want to know how and why this OP came about, I'll be glad to tell you however, I would prefer that Stak explain that himself if he so chooses.

Jersey Girl

[_MsJack]

honorentheos ~ I cite things that people have actually said because I find that it's infinitely preferable to show someone where s/he has been a "boorish ass" or a "hateful bigot" as opposed to merely calling them that. It shows them where I take issue with them and why and gives them something tangible to work with.

We've all said things on the Internet that we regret. When people apologize for their words or otherwise show that their behavior has changed, I don't use their past against them. Jesus states in the Gospels that men and women will be held accountable for every idle word that comes from their mouths (Matthew 12:36-37), so it's really not my score-keeping that anyone should be worried about.

If you're asking about Cam in particular: for my own part, he's forgiven. I don't buy that he's really sorry, but that's immaterial. He's forgiven. If he treats me with respect, he will never hear another word from me about his conduct. Over time, he can even earn my respect again.

If he continues his ad hominem campaign on me though, I will bring it up again as a reminder of why I don't respect him or take him seriously, and why no one else should, either.

(My husband sure as hell doesn't forgive him, but that's pretty much not my problem.)

[_Jersey Girl]

honor

But I found Stak starting the thread in your defense kind of a side-ways sexist thing to do.

honor, please read the OP again and read it carefully. Stak's defense wasn't limited to MsJack.

Why do you see the OP as a side-ways sexist thing to do?

Cam has a long history of targeting female posters. If Stak's defense of us is a side-ways sexist thing to do then please tell me what exactly is Cam's behavior?

There are only a small handfull of female posters who actively post on this board. The majority are male posters. How many times have the female posters stepped up to the plate to defend males on this board?

I'll make it a simpler task...how many times have you seen ME defend males on this board? If you happen to follow my postings, you'll know that I do it on a fairly regular basis.

So Stak steps up to the plate and now it's sexist?

I see it that way at all, honor.

[_honorentheos]

Hi Jersey Girl.

I've seen the hateful things Cam has said to you in the past. I don't doubt that you have good cause to feel hurt by it. I'm not questioning that.

You ask above that if I saw in Stak's OP a sideways sexist sentiment what Cam's behavior must be? I'm not disputing it was straight forward sexist. I'm not defending that. And this is getting back to the tu quoque question. I think we are confusing Cam's unquestionable bad behavior with my respect for how he stepped away contrasted with my frank disapproval of MsJack's subsequent behavior. The contrast seems so stark to me that to not say something in light of MsJack's post after Cam had left was unthinkable.

While I understand your point and appreciate where you are coming from, I stand by my posts above. If I am alone in seeing it this way, that's fine.