If Richard Bushman had written Rough Stone Rolling in 1992

[_zeezrom]

2. There is no evidence that Joseph actually had "sex" with any of his sealed marriages.
There is "circumstantial" evidence with some testimony after his death, but that testimony is highly suspect given the circumstances (the Cain effect).

Sigh... those damn, troublesome women!

[_Runtu]

Sigh... those damn, troublesome women!

Apparently, all those faithful LDS women who said they had sex with Joseph Smith were lying. It stands to reason that these were just the kind of people who wanted to discredit the prophet.

[_bcspace]

Sigh... those damn, troublesome women!

Apparently, all those faithful LDS women who said they had sex with Joseph Smith were lying. It stands to reason that these were just the kind of people who wanted to discredit the prophet.

Lots of assumptions, inferences, and ellipsis (...) on that site and no direct references tied to the quotes.

[_Runtu]

Lots of assumptions, inferences, and ellipsis (...) on that site and no direct references tied to the quotes.

I wasn't talking about that site. We've been over this before. I've laid out the evidence for you several times, and each time you run away. If it were just a matter of yellow journalism, you'd have a better response than disappearing.

[_Runtu]

Brian Hales's website provides pretty good evidence that at least 9 of Joseph Smith's marriages involved sexual relations. Last I checked, he isn't a yellow journalist or an anti-Mormon.

http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSP ... ality.html

[_Stormy Waters]

Brian Hales's website provides pretty good evidence that at least 9 of Joseph Smith's marriages involved sexual relations. Last I checked, he isn't a yellow journalist or an anti-Mormon.

http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/JSP ... ality.html

Thanks for posting this Runtu. Also I found the blog post you wrote on this topic informative. The evidence seems to be strongly in favor of him having sexual relations with his polygamous wives. Brigham Young had sex wife his polygamous wives, so from a standpoint of consistency Mormons have to reconcile polygamous sexual relations already.

ETA: I'm sure ldsfaqs will call Brain Hale's a lying anti-Mormon for presenting information that is 'unfavorable' to the church.

[_Darth J]

Ldsfaqs---

Pursuant to your comment here, did Joseph Smith have sex with his plural wives?

___Yes

___No

First some distinctions.....

1. There is no evidence he practiced Polygamy, which is what he said. The only evidence is that he practiced the sealing ordinance. Sex however is a different issue.

2. There is no evidence that Joseph actually had "sex" with any of his sealed marriages.
There is "circumstantial" evidence with some testimony after his death, but that testimony is highly suspect given the circumstances (the Cain effect).

3. Given all the history I've read, the totality, I believe Joseph DID NOT have sex with any of his Sealings. However, I do allow the "possibility" that he might have with a couple.

My judgment is based on the fact that there is simply no "good" evidence of it.
I'm not going to slander someone based on suspect testimony and the rumor mill.
Even further, I've read testimony's of others associated with some of those "sex" testimony's which have claimed their testimony's are false, that they are familiar with the events in question. I've also read more concerning some of the "circumstances" in which a couple of sex events supposedly occurred (such as the barn event), and have found that the anti-mormon version of the event is actually false.

Basically, when I was an anti-mormon I believed Joseph did have sex.
But, since I actually have fully studied the history since, I believe differently now.

Ldsfaqs---

Based on the text of Rough Stone Rolling, does Richard Bushman believe that Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives?

___Yes

___No

[_ldsfaqs]

First, I do disagree with some LDS "assumptions", such as this one.

Second, I just looked at that site, and it says little to nothing.
It lists 9 PROBABLE sexual encounters. (thus not the certainty you all claim)
I then look at the first example, Fanny Alger.
I see nothing there but various quotations of the RUMOR MILL.... No first hand accounts at all.

Third, I look at the 9 "probables" and ONLY THREE two sisters and the Lott girl gives an actual "first hand" account of any sexual activity (all the rest are 2nd & 3rd hand accounts). Further, the sisters it could be a game thing, and then the Lott girl, the way she answered the questions it gives the indication that she's making it up, because she's not sure and not specific when asked, not sure what she did when and where, then only get's a little more specific after some pressing, and even then she seems unsure. Classic behavior of someone making a story up.

Bottom line..... That site shows well how really POOR the evidence is.
Further, that site doesn't indicate all the information on the matter. For example, in many materials I've read, other accounts are given which debunk many of the accounts.

Anyway, I'm not afraid if Joseph did consummate a couple of his marriages. It may very well have been one of his sins, not overt but certainly covert, likely keeping such from Emma. Still, he was the Prophet of the Restoration, and some mortal weakness doesn't change the truth.

[_ldsfaqs]

Unfortunately I don't remember everything that was in "Rough Stone Rolling", and I don't have my copy because of recent events the last 2 years personally, loosing my book collection for a second time in life.

But, I wouldn't be surprised if it's indicated and that he say's it's "probable" that Joseph was intimate with some of his wives.

[_Darth J]

Anyway, I'm not afraid if Joseph did consummate a couple of his marriages. It may very well have been one of his sins, not overt but certainly covert, likely keeping such from Emma. Still, he was the Prophet of the Restoration, and some mortal weakness doesn't change the truth.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 gives specific parameters for when plural marriage is acceptable to the Lord:

*The consent of the previous wife must be sought
*The plural wives must be virgins
*The plural wives must be vowed to no one else
*A man's plural wives "are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth"

D&C 132:61-63

In practicing plural marriage, Joseph Smith:

*Frequently did not seek Emma's consent/hid his plural marriages from Emma
*On January 17, 1842, married Mary Elizabeth Rollins, who was several months pregnant (obviously not a virgin)
*Entered polyandrous marriages with the wives of other men
*Had no known children with his plural wives

We also learn from the Doctrine and Covenants that the powers of the priesthood can only be exercised in righteousness.

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

D&C 121

How did Joseph Smith continue to be "the Prophet of the Restoration" if he "did consummate a couple of his marriages, not overt but certainly covert, likely keeping such from Emma"?