If Richard Bushman had written Rough Stone Rolling in 1992

[_Drifting]

First some distinctions.....

1. There is no evidence he practiced Polygamy, which is what he said. The only evidence is that he practiced the sealing ordinance. Sex however is a different issue.

2. There is no evidence that Joseph actually had "sex" with any of his sealed marriages.
There is "circumstantial" evidence with some testimony after his death, but that testimony is highly suspect given the circumstances (the Cain effect).

3. Given all the history I've read, the totality, I believe Joseph DID NOT have sex with any of his Sealings. However, I do allow the "possibility" that he might have with a couple.

My judgment is based on the fact that there is simply no "good" evidence of it.
I'm not going to slander someone based on suspect testimony and the rumor mill.
Even further, I've read testimony's of others associated with some of those "sex" testimony's which have claimed their testimony's are false, that they are familiar with the events in question. I've also read more concerning some of the "circumstances" in which a couple of sex events supposedly occurred (such as the barn event), and have found that the anti-mormon version of the event is actually false.

Basically, when I was an anti-mormon I believed Joseph did have sex.
But, since I actually have fully studied the history since, I believe differently now.

ldsfaqs, what does it say in section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants about the purpose of polygamy and why He allowed Joseph to practice it? That's right, to 'raise seed' which means having babies.

What alternative methods to sex were at Joseph's disposal in terms of delivering this divinely commanded outcome? If there weren't any alternatives we are left with only two possible thoughts:
1. Joseph disobeyed God
2. The mid-thirties Joseph at least attempted to impregnate his wives, including the 15 year old Helen Kimball

[_Runtu]

Third, I look at the 9 "probables" and ONLY THREE two sisters and the Lott girl gives an actual "first hand" account of any sexual activity (all the rest are 2nd & 3rd hand accounts). Further, the sisters it could be a game thing, and then the Lott girl, the way she answered the questions it gives the indication that she's making it up, because she's not sure and not specific when asked, not sure what she did when and where, then only get's a little more specific after some pressing, and even then she seems unsure. Classic behavior of someone making a story up.

Bottom line..... That site shows well how really POOR the evidence is.
Further, that site doesn't indicate all the information on the matter. For example, in many materials I've read, other accounts are given which debunk many of the accounts.

Anyway, I'm not afraid if Joseph did consummate a couple of his marriages. It may very well have been one of his sins, not overt but certainly covert, likely keeping such from Emma. Still, he was the Prophet of the Restoration, and some mortal weakness doesn't change the truth.

If you're not afraid of it, why not take the wives' word for it? And what exactly would be sinful about having sex with your wife? Help me out here, because you're not making sense.

[_Buffalo]

blah blah blah

What evidence do you have that any of Joseph Smith's marriages weren't sexual?

[_Runtu]

What evidence do you have that any of Joseph Smith's marriages weren't sexual?

As Brian Hales mentioned, there is evidence that at least 9 of the marriages were sexual. Even ldsfaqs concedes that three of them are quite solid (which is why he has to attack the character of these otherwise faithful Latter-day Saints).

For me, if a woman who is recorded as one of Joseph's wives testifies that she did have sexual relations with him, I see no reason to disbelieve it. After all, if you can't trust a firsthand witness, you really can't trust anyone. That other people corroborate their testimony confirms it to me.

I tend to believe that, given the nature of the revelation on plural marriage, Joseph considered these marriages to be valid in every sense, so sexuality was probably involved in most of the marriages. I don't see any reason to believe that Joseph considered these marriages sealings only. And, as you say, there's no evidence that establishes that he had nonsexual marriages.

[_Fence Sitter]

.

For me, if a woman who is recorded as one of Joseph's wives testifies that she did have sexual relations with him, I see no reason to disbelieve it. After all, if you can't trust a firsthand witness, you really can't trust anyone. That other people corroborate their testimony confirms it to me.

Not only did they testify, they did so as sympathetic witnesses for the Church. This was not a group of disaffected women trying to harm the Church with their testimonies.

[_Buffalo]

What evidence do you have that any of Joseph Smith's marriages weren't sexual?

As Brian Hales mentioned, there is evidence that at least 9 of the marriages were sexual. Even ldsfaqs concedes that three of them are quite solid (which is why he has to attack the character of these otherwise faithful Latter-day Saints).

For me, if a woman who is recorded as one of Joseph's wives testifies that she did have sexual relations with him, I see no reason to disbelieve it. After all, if you can't trust a firsthand witness, you really can't trust anyone. That other people corroborate their testimony confirms it to me.

I tend to believe that, given the nature of the revelation on plural marriage, Joseph considered these marriages to be valid in every sense, so sexuality was probably involved in most of the marriages. I don't see any reason to believe that Joseph considered these marriages sealings only. And, as you say, there's no evidence that establishes that he had nonsexual marriages.

Indeed. And since sex is the default for marriage (and the commandment in this case), the burden is on apologists to back up their claims that the relationships were platonic.

[_Drifting]

Indeed. And since sex is the default for marriage (and the commandment in this case), the burden is on apologists to back up their claims that the relationships were platonic.

And then explain why God's Prophet failed to follow a commandment from God in answer to the specific question that Joseph asked him.

[_SteelHead]

Outside of the testimomy of some of the women involved what more evidence would exist?

Faqs are you married? What hard evidence exists that you and your wife (if married) have ever had sex and that your relationship is not strictly platonic as you describe Joseph's plural marriages?

Why do you accept the testimomy of the 3 and 8 witnesses to the Book of Mormon and yet reject the sworn affidavits of women who claim to have had relations with Joseph?

[_ldsfaqs]

Anyway, I'm not afraid if Joseph did consummate a couple of his marriages. It may very well have been one of his sins, not overt but certainly covert, likely keeping such from Emma. Still, he was the Prophet of the Restoration, and some mortal weakness doesn't change the truth.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 gives specific parameters for when plural marriage is acceptable to the Lord:

*The consent of the previous wife must be sought
*The plural wives must be virgins
*The plural wives must be vowed to no one else
*A man's plural wives "are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth"

D&C 132:61-63

In practicing plural marriage, Joseph Smith:

*Frequently did not seek Emma's consent/hid his plural marriages from Emma
*On January 17, 1842, married Mary Elizabeth Rollins, who was several months pregnant (obviously not a virgin)
*Entered polyandrous marriages with the wives of other men
*Had no known children with his plural wives

We also learn from the Doctrine and Covenants that the powers of the priesthood can only be exercised in righteousness.

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

D&C 121

How did Joseph Smith continue to be "the Prophet of the Restoration" if he "did consummate a couple of his marriages, not overt but certainly covert, likely keeping such from Emma"?

Those are the rules for Polygamy..... Joseph wasn't practicing Polygamy, but only the Sealing Ordinance. Further, if Joseph did consummate some of the marriages, Emma did at certain points give her consent to the practice.

Further, I'm not afraid of the fact that Joseph might have sinned some, in maybe not being as honest with his wife. Maybe that was his cross..... However, we don't know either way of anything. I'm not going to judge, and the anti-mormon shouldn't be judging either, but that doesn't stop you all from doing so.

[_SteelHead]

Faqs, I am just going to hazard a guess...... You don't believe that men have set foot on the moon, do you?