Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wives

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_Buffalo
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
Joseph wasn't technically a pedophile because his PRIMARY interest wasn't teenage girls. However his relationship with Helen Mar Kimball could only be described as pedophilic, given the later age for puberty at the time.


Even teenage girls don't fall under the definition of pedophilia. On top of that, you have no evidence as to the status of HMK's puberty so you've been reduced to making a hopeful and yellow journalistic assumption because you have a chestnut to protect.


Pedophilia is sexual attraction/rape of prepubescent children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_bcspace
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _bcspace »

Joseph Smith said he was an abortionist.


No, Sarah Pratt did though.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
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Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _bcspace »

Even teenage girls don't fall under the definition of pedophilia. On top of that, you have no evidence as to the status of HMK's puberty so you've been reduced to making a hopeful and yellow journalistic assumption because you have a chestnut to protect.

Pedophilia is sexual attraction/rape of prepubescent children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty#Historical_shift


Just as I said...you've been reduced.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Runtu
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _Runtu »

bcspace wrote:No, Sarah Pratt did though.


So did Hyrum Smith.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vLgUAA ... tt&f=false
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _Stormy Waters »

bcspace wrote:
Potentially none by definition. By this logic, you're accusing every Jr high school student (or everyone who ever was) of being a pedophile.


I phrased it that way to mock what ldsfaqs said. The argument that it's okay because his average was higher is absurd. Was Joseph Smith a pedophile? I don't know. Did he marry a 14 year old? He sure did.
_Buffalo
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
Joseph Smith said he was an abortionist.


No, Sarah Pratt did though.


Correction, Hyrum Smith.

AFFIDAVIT OF HYRUM SMITH.

On the seventeenth day of may, 1842, having been made acquainted with some of the conduct of John C. Bennett, which was given in testimony under oath before Alderman G. W. Harris, by several females, who testified that John C. Bennett endeavored to seduce them and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in the faith to bear such mysteries -- that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves, vehemently trying them from day to day, to yield to his passions, bringing witnesses of his own clan to testify that [there] was such revelations and such commandments, and that it was of God; also stating that he would be responsible for their sins, if their was any; and that he would give them medicine to produce abortions, providing they should become pregnant. One of these witnesses, a married woman that he attended upon in his professional capacity, whilst she was sick, stated that he made proposals to her of a similar nature; he told her that he wished her husband was dead, and that if he was dead he would marry her and clear out out with her; he also begged her permission to give him medicine to that effect; he did try to give him medicine, but he would not take it -- on interrogating her what she thought of such teaching, she replied, she was sick at the time, and had to be lifted in and out of her bed like a child. (THE WASP. --- EXTRA. Nauvoo, Illinois, Wednesday, July 27, 1842.)




Mrs. [Sarah Pratt].: "You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and me the instruments with which he used to * operate for Joseph. ' There was a house in Nauvoo, 'right across the flat,' about a mile and a-half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there, when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house."

Mrs. H.: "Many little bodies of new-born children floated down the Mississippi..."

May 21, 1886, I had a fresh interview with Mrs. Sarah M. Pratt, who had the kindness to give me the following testimony additional to the information given by her in our interviews in the spring of 1885. "I want you to have all my statements correct in your book," said the noble lady, "and put my name to them; I want the truth, the full truth, to be known, and bear the responsibility of it...

"Joseph Smith, the son of the prophet, and president of the re-organized Mormon church, paid me a visit, and I had a long talk with him. I saw that he was not inclined to believe the truth about his father, so I said to him: 'You pretend to have revelations from the Lord. Why don't you ask the Lord to tell you what kind of a man your father really was?' He answered: 'If my father had so many connections with women, where is the progeny?' I said to him: 'Your father had mostly intercourse with married women, and as to single ones, Dr. Bennett was always on hand, when anything happened...'

Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so-called doctor-book. I had a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc., -- this explains my borrowing that book. While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said: 'Oh, a little job for Joseph; one of his women is in trouble.' Saying this. he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end. I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered. (Mormon Portraits I, von Wymetal, Wilhelm, SLC: Tribune Printing & Pub., 1886, page 59-62).


Now, maybe it's true, and maybe it isn't. But there's no evidence that the marriages were platonic.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
Just as I said...you've been reduced.


Do you know how a bell curve works?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_bcspace
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Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _bcspace »

Correction, Hyrum Smith.


Amen. You've been reduced again. Then there is this hostile reporter name Wyl......

Just as I said...you've been reduced.

Do you know how a bell curve works?


Yep. Have created many from data. That's why I know you're still guessing.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Buffalo
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Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
Yep. Have created many from data. That's why I know you're still guessing.


It's highly improbable that the girl had undergone puberty yet. But I know you apologists love to hide out in remote possibility. :)
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_bcspace
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Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: Why does it matter if Joseph had relations with his wive

Post by _bcspace »

Yep. Have created many from data. That's why I know you're still guessing.

It's highly improbable that the girl had undergone puberty yet.


Well, you certainly don't understand bell curves seeing as how you try to generate them from one data point.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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