North American Horses

[_ScottMc]

I haven't bothered reading any posts yet but based on topics, it seems this site is for Mormon bashing. Anyway, I'm investigating the church by first reading the Book of Mormon and finding answers to things I don't understand. Taken as a whole, it seems most impossible that someone could have written such a long history without help from some sort of Higher Power. So my question:

The people who came to N. American from Jerusalem about 600BC found horses. Were horses here already, where they brought here, or ?

Thanks

[_MCB]

There is no pre-Columbian archaeological evidence for horses as we know them. The primitive horses found were well outside the window of time described by the Book of Mormon. Llamas performed many functions of the horse. Mormons might say that when Jesus came, the cataclysm destroyed the evidence.

There are many other evidences that the Book of Mormon was written with information available in the early 1800's, and within the context of early 1800's culture. If you will do some research on people such as Solomon Spalding and Ethan Smith, you will know that there were some highly educated people who contributed to the Book of Mormon, either plagiarized or as collaborators. Also read the Biblical Apocrypha, the Catholic Deuterocanon, to find parallels. I pray that you will see the burning in the bosom as indigestion.

[_malkie]

I haven't bothered reading any posts yet but based on topics, it seems this site is for Mormon bashing. Anyway, I'm investigating the church by first reading the Book of Mormon and finding answers to things I don't understand. Taken as a whole, it seems most impossible that someone could have written such a long history without help from some sort of Higher Power. So my question:

The people who came to N. American from Jerusalem about 600BC found horses. Were horses here already, where they brought here, or ?

Thanks

Welcome to the board. Whatever it is that you are looking for, I hope you find it.

As far as writing "such a long history without help from some sort of Higher Power" goes, Joseph Smith is not alone in writing hundreds of pages of text. Nor is he alone in claiming that "some sort of Higher Power" helped him.

You'll find lots of opinions here on things you don't understand as you read the Book of Mormon - some pro-mormonism, many anti - few faithful LDS post here.

by the way, I think you're wrong in thinking that "this site is for Mormon bashing". Some posters use it in that way, others bash whoever they think are anti-mormons. But "bashing" is not the purpose of the site.
Perhaps you should try to read some posts before you jump to conclusions "based on topics".

[_DrW]

I haven't bothered reading any posts yet but based on topics, it seems this site is for Mormon bashing.

Welcome Scott,

As the name of this site suggests, this board was set up to promote discussions about Mormonism.

Unlike the MDD or LDS.org sites, it was not set up especially for believing Mormons, nor was it set up especially for those who have left the Church, or are in the process of leaving the Church, as were the Postmormon.org or Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) sites.

In a minimally controlled environment such as this, where ideas and claims stand on their own merit and are judged on the evidence, the faithful Mormon contingent has been unable to compete.

Several Mormon apologists have simply given up and left the site because they were unable to reasonably or logically defend their positions. What we have as active representatives of the Mormon faith on the site now are a few die-hard believers who feel that it is their duty to defend the Gospel at any cost, no matter how outrageous its claims or how contrary to science and reality its tenets may be.

Your question regarding horses in the pre-Columbian New World has been addressed by MCB in her post above. Horses are not the only things that the Book of Mormon claims to have been present in the New World before the time of Columbus, which were, in fact, not found in the New World until after Europeans arrived in the 15th Century.

Among the other Book of Mormon anachronisms are:
Elephants
Goats
Cattle
Swine
Wheat and Barley
Honey Bees
Figs
Chariots
Glass windows and
Silk,
to name a few.

Add to this the fact that large portions of the Book of Mormon were lifted directly from the King James version of the Bible, which version of the Bible was not in existence when the Book of Mormon was supposedly written, and you have overwhelming evidence for a massive fraud.

If you are investigating the Church, you should be sure to ask the missionaries about Joseph Smith's polygamy and polyandry, the requirement to pay 10% of your income to the Church, and the belief that Mormons who live according to all of the commandments will someday be gods themselves and have their own planets.

You might also be interested to know that Mormons believe that the Garden of Eden was actually located near Daviss County Mo, that the American Indians and the Polynesians are all descended from the Lehites who came to the New World by boat about 600 years BC, and that worthy males will have the opportunity to have multiple wives in the next life.

If you think I am exaggerating or making this stuff up, please just ask the missionaries or whoever is teaching you the gospel. If they deny any of this, just log on to the internet and you will be able to sort it out for yourself in short order from neutral sources such as Wikipedia.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[_Ceeboo]

Hi Scott

I haven't bothered reading any posts yet but based on topics, it seems this site is for Mormon bashing.

If I may, you might want to invest some time engaging, sharing, digesting, and getting to know the members of this community before making your determination regarding this entire board.

In my opinion, there is "Mormon bashing" that takes place here (Each of us will/can measure why that is and how much merit we place in it), but there is also a plethora of information, personal experiences/perspectives, and very fascinating information about the history of Mormonism (Some of which is offered by members here at MDB that have family lineage all the way back to the early 1800's)
That (No matter what ones personal beliefs are) is an extremely cool and valuable asset to drink from.

Anyway, welcome to the board and best wishes on your journey (No matter where it leads you) :)

BTW- there are a ton of atheists here so proceed with caution. :)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Drifting]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20618&hilit=Horse+tapir

[_DrW]

BTW- there are a ton of atheists here so proceed with caution. :)

Peace,
Ceeboo

With apologies to Ceeboo; what he should have said is that there are a ton of atheists here who were formerly faithful members of the Mormon Church.

[_MCB]

With apologies to Ceeboo; what he actually meant to say is that there are a ton of atheists here who were formerly faithful members of the Mormon Church.

And, knowing nothing else, therefore reject all religion.

[_ScottMc]

Lots to digest ... already!

[_tapirrider]

The Book of Mormon has three migrations to America. The earliest was the Jaradites about 2,200 B.C. Their story is found in the book of Ether. It does not say if they brought horses but it leave the possibility that they might have.

Ether 2:
1 AND it came to pass that Jared and his brother, and their families, and also the friends of Jared and his brother and their families, went down into the valley which was northward, (and the name of the valley was Nimrod, being called after the mighty hunter) with their flocks which they had gathered together, male and female, of every kind.
2 And they did also lay snares and catch fowls of the air; and they did also prepare a vessel, in which they did carry with them the fish of the waters.
3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

It does not say what animals were in their flocks. Later it said they had horses in America. Maybe they brought them with, maybe not. The Book of Mormon is not clear enough on this.

Ether 9:19
And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

The Book of Mormon tells about Lehi and his people's migration. It happened at a much later time than the Jaradites (about 589 B.C.). It does not say if they brought horses with them but it does say that soon after they arrived they found horses in America.

1 Nephi 18:25
And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

The Mulekites arrived in America after Lehi (about 570 B.C.) so the original source of the horses were not from them.