My First Encounters with Institutional Mormonism

[_Simon Southerton]

Yes. The majority of Australian families are either non-believers or they never go to church. My kids fit in perfectly. .

And yet, when we look at children today many are being raised to be egoists and narcissists. Not good at all. Also, there seems to be a lack of empathy and caring for the weak in society. Not good at all too. So, this can conclude that as an economic system comes to be a dog eat dog society, or a competitive reality TV show, everyone suffers from a lack of compassionate ethics.

I agree that churches can be very good vehicles for teaching children ethics and compassion for the weaker in society. But many secular societies manage to do this quite effectively outside of churches.

Interestingly, when you compare countries based on the level of government redistribution of wealth to the poor and elderly (social security) the most secular countries typically are far more generous.
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/defa ... sina11.pdf

[_SteelHead]

We all have to come to terms with the feelings of truth that is received within Mormonism. And I cannot say that it is matched in other faiths. What makes the Book of Mormon unique, is the promise at the end of the book. Quite a bold statement to make for the writer of the Book of Mormon unless of course, it was written by a prophet. I can read charles dickens and pray about it and receive nothing...likewise for many works of literature. But of course, charles never claimed that his books were from god and that people should pray about them. The writer of the Book of Mormon had absolute confidence that people would be receiving witnesses to the book. And I do believe that the 11 witnesses plus whitmer's mother who all saw the book of plates must have had a huge experience to keep them within the witness statement in front of the Book of Mormon. Difficult to explain away since they never denied that experience.

BEHOLD: the power of confirmation bias and self delusion is awesome in my sight.

[Guest]

In reference to the posts above that discuss the fact that there was a large population of humans on the Earth before the time of Adam and Eve as described in the Bible and the Pearl of Great Price, it is interesting to note that the Mitochondrial Eve lives some 200,000 years ago.

Here is a Science News article discussing Mitochondrial Eve, our most recent matrilineal common ancestor.

If the descendants of Adam and Eve who lived in the Garden of Eden near Daviss County, MO less than 10,000 years ago are alive today, they are carrying genetic markers from a female that lived about 190,000 years before they did.

Our most recent Y-chromosomal common ancestor (Y-Chromosomal Adam) lived more recently with best estimates somewhere between about 140,000 and 60,000 years ago.

Regarding the references above concerning pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact and their lack of a contribution to the overall New World genome, this Wiki article is a good summary.

Viking records and New World archeology show a pre-Columbian trans-oceanic journey to the New World approximately 900 to 1000 AD. This settlement was eventually abandoned by the Vikings due in part to trouble with the local Indians. This is the same group that is believed to have taken the Amerinidan mother the single Amerinidan child back to Iceland about 1,000 years ago as described in my earlier post.

There is also archeological evidence for isolated contact along the West Coast of the New World between Amerindians and Polynesians. Neither the Vikings or the Polynesians contributed to the overall New World genome.

[Guest]

You want witnesses? Try these:

T E S T I M O N Y . Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, to whom this Book of the Law of the Lord shall come, that James J. Strang has the plates of the ancient Book of the Law of the Lord given to Moses, from which he translated this law, and has shown them to us. We examined them with our eyes, and handled them with our hands. The engravings are beautiful antique workmanship, bearing a striking resemblance to the ancient oriental languages; and those from which the laws in this book were translated are eighteen in number, about seven inches and three-eights wide, by nine inches long, occasionally embellished with beautiful pictures.

And we testify unto you all that the everlasting kingdom of God is established, in which this law shall be kept, till it brings in rest and everlasting righteousness to all the faithful.

SAMUEL GRAHAM, SAMUEL P. BACON, WARREN POST, PHINEAS WRIGHT, ALBERT N. HOSMER, EBENEZER PAGE, JEHIEL SAVAGE.

Or these:

We, the undersigned, hereby testify, that we saw the holy Angel standing upon the house-top, as mentioned in the foregoing declaration, holding the Roll and Book.

Betsey Boothe. Louisa Chamberlain. Caty De Witt. Laura Ann Jacobs.

Sarah Maria Lewis. Sarah Ann Spencer. Lucinda McDoniels. Maria Hedrick.

Maybe these:

Testimony of Witnesses to the Voree Plates.

1. On the thirteenth day of September, 1845, we, Aaron Smith, Jirah B. Wheelan, James M. Van Nostrand, and Edward Whitcomb, assembled at the call of James J. Strang, who is by us and many others approved as a Prophet and Seer of God. He proceeded to inform us that it had been revealed to him in a vision that an account of an ancient people was buried in a hill south of White River bridge, near the east line of Walworth County; and leading us to an oak tree about one foot in diameter, told us that we would find it enclosed in a case of rude earthen ware under that tree at the depth of about three feet; requested us to dig it up, and charged us to so examine the ground that we should know we were not imposed upon, and that it had not been buried there since the tree grew. The tree was surrounded by a sward of deeply rooted grass, such as is usually found in the openings, and upon the most critical examination we could not discover any indication that it had ever been cut through or disturbed.

2. We then dug up the tree, and continued to dig to the depth of about three feet, where we found a case of slightly baked clay containing three plates of brass. On one side of one is a landscape view of the south end of Gardner's prairie and the range of hills where they were dug. On another is a man with a crown on his head and a scepter in his hand, above is an eye before an upright line, below the sun and moon surrounded with twelve stars, at the bottom are twelve large stars from three of which pillars arise, and closely interspersed with them are seventy very small stars. The other four sides are very closely covered with what appear to be alphabetic characters, but in a language of which we have no knowledge.

3. The case was found imbedded in indurated clay so closely fitting it that it broke in taking out, and the earth below the soil was so hard as to be dug with difficulty even with a pickax. Over the case was found a flat stone about one foot wide each way and three inches thick, which appeared to have undergone the action of fire, and fell in pieces after a few minutes exposure to the air. The digging extended in the clay about eighteen inches, there being two kinds of earth of different color and appearance above it.

4. We examined as we dug all the way with the utmost care, and we say, with utmost confidence, that no part of the earth through which we dug exhibited any sign or indication that it had been moved or disturbed at any time previous. The roots of the tree stuck down on every side very closely, extending below the case, and closely interwoven with roots from other trees. None of them had been broken or cut away. No clay is found in the country like that of which the case is made.

5. In fine, we found an alphabetic and pictorial record, carefully cased up, buried deep in the earth, covered with a flat stone, with an oak tree one foot in diameter growing over it, with every evidence that the sense can give that it has lain there as long as that tree has been growing. Strang took no part in the digging, but kept entirely away from before the first blow was struck till after the plates were taken out of the case; and the sole inducement to our digging was our faith in his statement as a Prophet of the Lord that a record would thus and there be found.

AARON SMITH, JIRAH B. WHEELAN, J. M. VAN NOSTRAND, EDWARD WHITCOMB

Looks like the Strangites have more than the Brighamites. Does that make them more true? Who wins?

[_RockSlider]

And so, there needed to be a reaction. It was really that simple.

And hence the title of this thread: "My First Encounters with Institutional Mormonism"

B.H. Roberts had a similar experience. Note that BH. spent his life trying to reconcile Science with Religion, and considered himself a scientist.
When the whole issue of Horses etc. burst on the scene BH went to the First Presidency and asked them to approach God for the answer. Basically on the concept that the Church stood on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and science was proving it wrong, hence the church was threatened.

Apparently no answer was forthcoming from God. And there we see the likely turning point of a Revelation based Mormonism to the Institutional Mormonism of today. If there are no inspirational answers to the hard questions, then best to bury the explorer/questioner.

It's kind of amazing that after burying BH, things remained pretty quiet until around 1993. And now that the internet is in every home … correlation, study groups, millions in advertisement ….

[_DrW]

NL, ldsfaqs, why me and other believing LDS readers:

When you consider the hundreds of stark contradictions between what evidence-based science says about the world and what the LDS scriptures teach about the world (several examples of which are apparent on this thread), how is it even possible for you to rationalize continued belief in the LDS scriptures?

With the Bible, one can at least say that it was written by bronze age people who made up stories to explain things they did not understand. It is claimed that the LDS scriptures came to humankind in modern times directly through the power of God.

Have you never asked yourselves how God could have gotten things so very wrong?

[_brade]

NL, ldsfaqs, why me and other believing LDS readers:

When you consider the hundreds of stark contradictions between what evidence-based science says about the world and what the LDS scriptures teach about the world (several examples of which are apparent on this thread), how is it even possible for you to rationalize continued belief in the LDS scriptures?

With the Bible, one can at least say that it was written by bronze age people who made up stories to explain things they did not understand. It is claimed that the LDS scriptures came to humankind in modern times directly through the power of God.

Have you never asked yourselves how God could have gotten things so very wrong?

Let me channel ldsfaqs and answer your question...ok, here goes:

NO, you are an anti-mormon LIAR! I was an anti-mormon and I KNOW your LIES like the back of my hand. Science and FACTS are on the side of Mormonism, and this has been proven time and time again by REAL scientists and not anti-mormon LIAR DNA scientists. I have read EVERY word ever written and I have comprehended ALL things. I know TRUE FACTS and that is how I know you're all anti-mormon LIARS.

ldsfaqs, feel free to copy/paste what I've written for you.

[_DrW]

Let me channel ldsfaqs and answer your question...ok, here goes:

NO, you are an anti-mormon LIAR! I was an anti-mormon and I KNOW your LIES like the back of my hand. Science and FACTS are on the side of Mormonism, and this has been proven time and time again by REAL scientists and not anti-mormon LIAR DNA scientists. I have read EVERY word ever written and I have comprehended ALL things. I know TRUE FACTS and that is how I know you're all anti-mormon LIARS.

ldsfaqs, feel free to copy/paste what I've written for you.

By jove, I think you've got it.

(ROTFLMAO.)

[_DrW]

You want witnesses? Try these:

T E S T I M O N Y . Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, to whom this Book of the Law of the Lord shall come, that James J. Strang has the plates of the ancient Book of the Law of the Lord given to Moses, from which he translated this law, and has shown them to us. We examined them with our eyes, and handled them with our hands. The engravings are beautiful antique workmanship, bearing a striking resemblance to the ancient oriental languages; and those from which the laws in this book were translated are eighteen in number, about seven inches and three-eights wide, by nine inches long, occasionally embellished with beautiful pictures.

And we testify unto you all that the everlasting kingdom of God is established, in which this law shall be kept, till it brings in rest and everlasting righteousness to all the faithful.

SAMUEL GRAHAM, SAMUEL P. BACON, WARREN POST, PHINEAS WRIGHT, ALBERT N. HOSMER, EBENEZER PAGE, JEHIEL SAVAGE.

Or these:

We, the undersigned, hereby testify, that we saw the holy Angel standing upon the house-top, as mentioned in the foregoing declaration, holding the Roll and Book.

Betsey Boothe. Louisa Chamberlain. Caty De Witt. Laura Ann Jacobs.

Sarah Maria Lewis. Sarah Ann Spencer. Lucinda McDoniels. Maria Hedrick.

Maybe these:

Testimony of Witnesses to the Voree Plates.

1. On the thirteenth day of September, 1845, we, Aaron Smith, Jirah B. Wheelan, James M. Van Nostrand, and Edward Whitcomb, assembled at the call of James J. Strang, who is by us and many others approved as a Prophet and Seer of God. He proceeded to inform us that it had been revealed to him in a vision that an account of an ancient people was buried in a hill south of White River bridge, near the east line of Walworth County; and leading us to an oak tree about one foot in diameter, told us that we would find it enclosed in a case of rude earthen ware under that tree at the depth of about three feet; requested us to dig it up, and charged us to so examine the ground that we should know we were not imposed upon, and that it had not been buried there since the tree grew. The tree was surrounded by a sward of deeply rooted grass, such as is usually found in the openings, and upon the most critical examination we could not discover any indication that it had ever been cut through or disturbed.

2. We then dug up the tree, and continued to dig to the depth of about three feet, where we found a case of slightly baked clay containing three plates of brass. On one side of one is a landscape view of the south end of Gardner's prairie and the range of hills where they were dug. On another is a man with a crown on his head and a scepter in his hand, above is an eye before an upright line, below the sun and moon surrounded with twelve stars, at the bottom are twelve large stars from three of which pillars arise, and closely interspersed with them are seventy very small stars. The other four sides are very closely covered with what appear to be alphabetic characters, but in a language of which we have no knowledge.

3. The case was found imbedded in indurated clay so closely fitting it that it broke in taking out, and the earth below the soil was so hard as to be dug with difficulty even with a pickax. Over the case was found a flat stone about one foot wide each way and three inches thick, which appeared to have undergone the action of fire, and fell in pieces after a few minutes exposure to the air. The digging extended in the clay about eighteen inches, there being two kinds of earth of different color and appearance above it.

4. We examined as we dug all the way with the utmost care, and we say, with utmost confidence, that no part of the earth through which we dug exhibited any sign or indication that it had been moved or disturbed at any time previous. The roots of the tree stuck down on every side very closely, extending below the case, and closely interwoven with roots from other trees. None of them had been broken or cut away. No clay is found in the country like that of which the case is made.

5. In fine, we found an alphabetic and pictorial record, carefully cased up, buried deep in the earth, covered with a flat stone, with an oak tree one foot in diameter growing over it, with every evidence that the sense can give that it has lain there as long as that tree has been growing. Strang took no part in the digging, but kept entirely away from before the first blow was struck till after the plates were taken out of the case; and the sole inducement to our digging was our faith in his statement as a Prophet of the Lord that a record would thus and there be found.

AARON SMITH, JIRAH B. WHEELAN, J. M. VAN NOSTRAND, EDWARD WHITCOMB

Looks like the Strangites have more than the Brighamites. Does that make them more true? Who wins?

SteelHead,

These are very interesting documents (texts of documents). I remember hearing about them at some point but never thought much about it. I am surprised that they do not get more attention from the post-mormon community.

Thanks for posting them.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Have you never asked yourselves how God could have gotten things so very wrong?

Anti-Mormon scum. That's a worded question.