Apostate Missionary Discussions

[_Stormy Waters]

Let's say that you are drawn into a debate with the average member of the LDS church. What do you think are the best arguments against the claims of Mormonism? What arguments do you think they would respond to the most? What arguments would do the most damage to their testimony? I don't want to put a time limit on this, but imagine that the time is limited so try to keep it focused.

ETA: in real life I don't advocate trying to actively destroy peoples faith. Learning the church is false can be an extremely traumatic event for some, and I think for some it's better to stay where they are. This is intended more as a theoretical exercise.

[_Stormy Waters]

To answer my own question:
Obviously you aren't going to be able to convince someone that their worldview is false in a brief discussion. So the main objective is to do lasting damage. What I would do is make the case that the church has hidden aspects of church history from them. If you can break the relationship of trust it's all downhill from there. Once they believe the church isn't being straight with them, they'll most likely start searching for their own.

Of course member to member their knowledge of church history will vary fairly widely. I'd start by showing them that Joseph Smith married women who were already married. You could use familysearch.org for this.

[_bcspace]

I think generally you're going to have to find someone already struggling to justify their sins or just not attending much at all. The very elect can be deceived, but it's quite difficult. I've been exposed to virtually all anti Mormon arguments and arguments about trust and hiding information etc. since my mid teens and here I am decades later still going strong and probably getting stronger.

[_SteelHead]

Jesus says:

Stronger! BC is my number one guy!

[_Hades]

I think generally you're going to have to find someone already struggling to justify their sins or just not attending much at all. The very elect can be deceived, but it's quite difficult. I've been exposed to virtually all anti Mormon arguments and arguments about trust and hiding information etc. since my mid teens and here I am decades later still going strong and probably getting stronger.

Oh yeah, since leaving the church I have become a huge sinner. Sometimes I pop the heads off baby ducks just for fun. I justify it by saying, "Mormonism isn't true, so these ducks got it coming".

[_Fence Sitter]

I think generally you're going to have to find someone already struggling to justify their sins or just not attending much at all. The very elect can be deceived, but it's quite difficult. I've been exposed to virtually all anti Mormon arguments and arguments about trust and hiding information etc. since my mid teens and here I am decades later still going strong and probably getting stronger.

This is a very effective approach to take. When someone protest that they don't want to see anti Mormon material you simply ask them if they don't want to be stronger in the faith and find out if they are truly the elect. You are, in effect, just another instrument in God's hand, that is bringing about his kingdom here on earth. There is much work to be done.

[_Buffalo]

I think generally you're going to have to find someone already struggling to justify their sins or just not attending much at all. The very elect can be deceived, but it's quite difficult. I've been exposed to virtually all anti Mormon arguments and arguments about trust and hiding information etc. since my mid teens and here I am decades later still going strong and probably getting stronger.

You're right. True believers are too emotionally invested to even consider contra evidence.

[_Fence Sitter]

As far as effective discussions go I let my home teacher or any other adult member that wants to do a formal visit, (missionaries excluded-they simply don't know much and are better off that way) that if they want to share a message then I do too. I will usually print up a copy of a Sunstone, Dialogue or JMH article, ask them to read it and come back to discuss it next time. I also like handing out copies of the Nauvoo Expositor.

[_Sophocles]

It is trivial to demonstrate to an open-minded person that the earth is round. And yet it is nearly impossible to convince a deluded follower of the Flat Earth Society of the same. Everything from Scientology to Holocaust Denial which is obviously false to outsiders nevertheless manages to attract and retain true believers. How does that happen?

That's where I would start. The website Why Won't God Heal Amputees does a good job of explaining this, and if I were designing apostate discussions, its lesson on Understanding Delusion might be Discussion #1.

Following OP's lead, though, I agree that the information most likely to have an impact is that which is verifiable through pro-Mormon sources, but about which most believing Mormons are unaware. Smith's polyandry is a good example of that.

[_Patriarchal gripe]

Simply asking a person of faith to square the God of the First Vision with the God of the Last Vision.

The God of the First Vision is a loving Heavenly Father who condescended to stoop near to earth to answer the sincere prayer of a 14 year old farm boy regarding how he should worship.

The God of the Last Vision is the God who sent an angel with a sword drawn and prepared to destroy that same farm boy if, determined by the agency or free will choice of another person, that farm boy was unsuccessful in marrying that other person.

Both accounts are historically verifiable by walking into any Deseret Book store. Give appropriate references for these stories (Bushman, etc) and ask the believer to reconcile that God, his view of agency, and the exaltation of family members upon the woman's choice.