Buffalo wrote:I think it's too late for the church to come clean - they'd have to admit to lying to membership from the beginning.
The church has nothing to gain from coming clean, and everything to lose. That's because the historical evidence shows an LDS church which is manmade, and not literally true in the sense LDS members mean it. "Coming clean" would be making this evidence more available to the membership, and more of them would be lead to the natural conclusions.
But what they can do is try to make church a more meaningful experience. People will be less motivated to look for answers when their church experience is fulfilling, and it just isn't fulfilling for many Mormons. Sunday services are dreadful pap with a side guilt-mongering.
I just went to a wedding for an Army buddy of mine this past weekend. He got married in a church in California that's affiliated with the Southern Baptists. It was a really great wedding. The music, the commentary from the pastor (though I naturally don't believe the God stuff, he did a great job at it), the overall feeling of happiness and joy, etc. were lightyears ahead of anything I've ever experienced at any Mormon wedding. I had enough sense not to tell my friend that Mormon apostles have proclaimed that his wedding and marriage are bargain basement. ;-)
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Buffalo wrote:I think it's too late for the church to come clean - they'd have to admit to lying to membership from the beginning.
The church has nothing to gain from coming clean, and everything to lose. That's because the historical evidence shows an LDS church which is manmade, and not literally true in the sense LDS members mean it. "Coming clean" would be making this evidence more available to the membership, and more of them would be lead to the natural conclusions.
But what they can do is try to make church a more meaningful experience. People will be less motivated to look for answers when their church experience is fulfilling, and it just isn't fulfilling for many Mormons. Sunday services are dreadful pap with a side guilt-mongering.
I just went to a wedding for an Army buddy of mine this past weekend. He got married in a church in California that's affiliated with the Southern Baptists. It was a really great wedding. The music, the commentary from the pastor (though I naturally don't believe the God stuff, he did a great job at it), the overall feeling of happiness and joy, etc. were lightyears ahead of anything I've ever experienced at any Mormon wedding. I had enough sense not to tell my friend that Mormon apostles have proclaimed that his wedding and marriage are bargain basement. ;-)
This reminds me of the box metaphor that many ex-Mormons like to use when they talk about their discovery that the outside world not only wasn't dreadful as promised, but much more beautiful than the inside of the box.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Most TBM's in my experience are familiar with the objections.
I am skeptical. In fact I flat out do not believe this. Most are not familiar with Church history issues at all other than what they get in the Ensign, Gospel Doctrine and maybe Seminary or Institute. I would love to have $100 for every time I have heard someone say the only reason we did polygamy was to help the widowed in pioneer times and that it was very limited. Most TBMs are in the dark about so many of the issues.
This is probably why, as Marlin K Jensen stated in a recent SLTrib article, there is no tidal wave of apostasy.[/quote]
Which contradicts to a certain extent what he said a few weeks earlier about not since Kirtland has there been such a wave of apostasy. That said I don't see a tidal wave or a mass exodus. Locally I see hardly anyone openly leaving for such reasons. Maybe four or five in a 10 year period. And I do see locally activity rates about what they have been all along where I live, about 48%.
The reality remains that most if not all who leave the Church claiming doctrinal or historical objections are merely using such as a rationalization or justification for some other problem.[/quote]
Jason Bourne wrote: I would love to have $100 for every time I have heard someone say the only reason we did polygamy was to help the widowed in pioneer times and that it was very limited. Most TBMs are in the dark about so many of the issues.
Or, "of course there is masonry in the temple ceremony, masonry comes from the temple of Solomon." I would call both claims a sure sign of ignorance if I had not used both explanations many times as a chapel Mormon.
It is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent. Bruce R. McConkie
Jason Bourne wrote: The reality remains that most if not all who leave the Church claiming doctrinal or historical objections are merely using such as a rationalization or justification for some other problem.
I didn't stop going to Church over doctrinal issues. I stopped going because after a 1000 Sacrament meetings and a 1000 Sunday School meetings and a 1000 Priesthood meetings and 750 Seminary classes I figured I had attended enough meetings to last me an eternity. If there is a God and he wants to punish me he will make me go to useless, boring, repetitive, uninspiring, carefully scripted meetings.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Jason Bourne wrote: The reality remains that most if not all who leave the Church claiming doctrinal or historical objections are merely using such as a rationalization or justification for some other problem.
I didn't stop going to Church over doctrinal issues. I stopped going because after a 1000 Sacrament meetings and a 1000 Sunday School meetings and a 1000 Priesthood meetings and 750 Seminary classes I figured I had attended enough meetings to last me an eternity. If there is a God and he wants to punish me he will make me go to useless, boring, repetitive, uninspiring, carefully scripted meetings.
I like to say "call me when you get some new material." I would always chuckle while sitting in Gospel Doctrine, or any meeting, and the teacher is teaching a lesson that everyone in the room has heard 8 billion times since they were little kids, and the teacher actually asks questions like, "Does anyone know who visited Joseph Smith in the sacred grove?" and nobody raises their hand. Either the class is filled with morons who can't retain any information, or they are like me, tired of answering the same questions over and over again. Or maybe they are even more like me and contemplating whether to give the church approved answer, or the real answer.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
The last time I willingly attended Sunday School the teacher was talking about the Flood of Noah, and manipulating our emotions by evoking the scene of Noah dogging shut the door in the side of the ark as his neighbors pounded on the hull begging to be let in as the rain poured down upon them, and how difficult it must have been for Noah to ignore their pleas and let them drown, as the inevitable consequence of their own prior choices.
The last time I unwillingly attended Sunday School, it was a communal anti-gay rant session, with the teacher bringing up the obvious righteousness of my state's version of Prop 8 (Arizona's Prop 102), and plenty of others riffing on that theme and bashing the faggots. My wife was mortified on my behalf, apologized for making me go, and pledged never to force me to go to Sunday School again. She was true to her word, too, and I haven't been since.
I was about to say you couldn't pay me enough to attend LDS Sunday School, but then I remembered that you can buy anything in this world with money, and conceded to myself that my attendance could indeed by induced with enough cheddar.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Jason Bourne wrote: I would love to have $100 for every time I have heard someone say the only reason we did polygamy was to help the widowed in pioneer times and that it was very limited. Most TBMs are in the dark about so many of the issues.
Or, "of course there is masonry in the temple ceremony, masonry comes from the temple of Solomon." I would call both claims a sure sign of ignorance if I had not used both explanations many times as a chapel Mormon.
Yup, heard those a million times. The one I hear all the time - "The biggest problem anti-Mormons have with us is they think we aren't Christian"
At least once a month...
H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level." ~ Ernest Becker "Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death." ~ Simone de Beauvoir
Sethbag wrote:The last time I willingly attended Sunday School the teacher was talking about the Flood of Noah, and manipulating our emotions by evoking the scene of Noah dogging shut the door in the side of the ark as his neighbors pounded on the hull begging to be let in as the rain poured down upon them, and how difficult it must have been for Noah to ignore their pleas and let them drown, as the inevitable consequence of their own prior choices.
The last time I unwillingly attended Sunday School, it was a communal anti-gay rant session, with the teacher bringing up the obvious righteousness of my state's version of Prop 8 (Arizona's Prop 102), and plenty of others riffing on that theme and bashing the faggots. My wife was mortified on my behalf, apologized for making me go, and pledged never to force me to go to Sunday School again. She was true to her word, too, and I haven't been since.
I was about to say you couldn't pay me enough to attend LDS Sunday School, but then I remembered that you can buy anything in this world with money, and conceded to myself that my attendance could indeed by induced with enough cheddar.
Since my ward house has Wifi and I have a Kindle Fire, for the minimal amount, I could be bribed to sit in a meeting, as long as I did not have to pay attention and could wear my headphones.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."