There are lots of deceased persons who don't have a grave besides holocaust Jews. I mentioned the Pol Pot victims as one example.
I didn't say that Jews would be the only ones to resent a systematic application of proxy baptism to ancestors who were murdered.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Sethbag wrote:So Mormon proxy baptism is indeed interpreted as a hostile act, but not hostile to the dead people, but rather hostile to the living Jews of today. And that is because it is not just tantamount, but in fact literally saying that Judaism is false, and that it must be replaced with Mormonism in the grand scheme of things?
Insert any given people or belief system you like. Mormon proxy baptism is an overt statement that whatever it is these people believed in during their lives (and which their descendants or relatives probably still do) is incorrect, and must be replaced by Mormonism in the grand scheme of things.
I think that is probably quite near to the truth.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Sethbag wrote: And that is because it is not just tantamount, but in fact literally saying that Judaism is false, and that it must be replaced with Mormonism in the grand scheme of things?
I don't know....let's ask The Persecution Patrol:
From the Mormon point of view, withholding baptism would be debilitating to the deceased person.
And then there's this:
News coverage expressing outrage or ridicule over this practice is unfair to Mormons who are acting out of respect and selflessness rather than the religious triumphalism assumed by critics.
See, we are saying that it will be debilitating to the ghosts of your loved ones not to be posthumous Mormons because we respect them!
Mormons seeking to honor their heritage and family should not be condemned for it; the baptism rite harms no one.
Except that it is other people's heritage and family, and those other people do not agree that it is honoring their heritage and family to say that it is debilitating for their dead relatives not to be Mormons.
Waving temple garments around outside the Conference Center harms no one, either. So protestors seeking to honor their understanding of Christianity should not be condemned for it.
Wait till they find out about proxy sealings. Not only can we place your ancestor into our faith we can also put him in our family. I have always wanted a Jewish grandmother.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Thanks for that last comment, Darth J. It's similar to what I originally wanted to type if I was able to get out more than two sentences at a time.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"
Darth J wrote:Waving temple garments around outside the Conference Center harms no one, either. So protestors seeking to honor their understanding of Christianity should not be condemned for it.
QFT
eschew obfuscation
"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
zeezrom wrote:Why is it offensive to baptize holocaust Jews and not offensive to baptize say, victims of Pol Pot's regime? Why so much talk about one group and not all the others.
Those other groups do not command much media attention nor do they have an organization to kvetch in their behalf.
Offense taken should be at least equal to the offense given. Since the LDS believe their baptisms represent something positive to the deceased, it is the offense taken that is outsized.
zeezrom wrote:Why is it offensive to baptize holocaust Jews and not offensive to baptize say, victims of Pol Pot's regime? Why so much talk about one group and not all the others.
Those other groups do not command much media attention nor do they have an organization to kvetch in their behalf.
Offense taken should be at least equal to the offense given. Since the LDS believe their baptisms represent something positive to the deceased, it is the offense taken that is outsized.
Umm ... so if you think fluorescent pink is a cool color, and when I go away for the weekend you come over and paint the whole outside of my house fluorescent pink, because you like me and want to share the best of all possible colors with me and my family, then I am not entitled to take offense at the thoughtless effrontery with which you interfered with my property? Just because you meant no offense, and had none but the best of intentions?
I don't think so.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:Umm ... so if you think fluorescent pink is a cool color, and when I go away for the weekend you come over and paint the whole outside of my house fluorescent pink, because you like me and want to share the best of all possible colors with me and my family, then I am not entitled to take offense at the thoughtless effrontery with which you interfered with my property? Just because you meant no offense, and had none but the best of intentions?
I don't think so.
Would it make any difference to you if the symbolic fluorescent pink was also invisible?
Mormons aren't acting out of respect and selflessness. Historically, or in rare instances today, being baptized for a close family member who has passed on "makes sense" but even then has nothing to do with respect or selflessness. Today, it's an act of process control. A bizarre melding of technology, corporate infrastructure, family history hobbyists, and vans full of youth telling off-color jokes on the way to the temple, having narrowly preserved their innocence just hours before by evading the bishop's questions about ...
Withholding baptism is not debilitating because it can be finished during the Millenium, after Jesus has torched the planet and pretty much silenced any concerns that the act is not God's will. If Noah and his generation could wait several thousand years to receive their ordinances, people today can wait another 30 years for the Millenium.
Mormons aren't honoring their heritage anymore than cooking a Sausage McMuffin honors food. Interestingly, McDonald's and Arctic Circle are the favorite post-baptism food stops for hungry youth. I think there is some symbolism here.