Science vs. Faith

[_Sethbag]

Oh dear. I came back to this thread at an inopportune time, it would seem.

I tried scanning back through at least three or four pages of comments to figure out where this all came from, and I'm not 100% convinced I get it.

If this is all about whether or not thorough, college-level knowledge of the state of philosophy of science, or about philosophy of religion, is required before anyone may opine on matters scientific or religious, then I come down on the "nay" side. I'm sure there's a lot to those disciplines, and I'm sure it's all very interesting and possibly even important, but a lot of it, as far as I can tell in my ignorant state, doesn't translate down to the every day practice or study of either science, or religion, by real people.

When I was studying physics (I changed over to computers after earning a minor, didn't finish the major), we measured things, we observed things, we talked about the interrelationships between things, and with the exception of some aspects of quantum physics, didn't get too wrapped around the axle asking ourselves questions like what does "exist" even mean?

It might be interesting to some to speculate on whether or not we're all just brains in jars with electrodes stuck into us, and all of this existence around us is just an illusion, but it's even more interesting to assume we're really here, the world around us actually exists, and just go with it. It's what all of us do every time we get out of bed in the morning.

[Anonymous]

Likewise, I don't find it very useful to dialogue when a person asserts that I cannot have an opinion on religion unless I am personally familiar with, and able to answer for, every single variation on belief and faith ever held by every other single person on Earth.

At some point, I've created certain pattern-matching idea filters based on past observation and thought about religion, from my own perspective and that which I've observed in the sample of others I've had interactions with over the last 43 years. I admit that these filters, based on finite experience, will not be perfect. When I am confronted with someone's claims about religion, my pattern-matching filters kick in, and when they are fairly confident of a hit with some claimed belief against ones I've already encountered and regarded as almost certainly false, the new idea is probably going to land up in the same bin with the others. I'm sorry, but that's the way life is. Like my Bayseian spam filter in my email client, the filters will constantly be adjusted and improved (hopefully) with further dialogue, experience, and contemplation, yet they play a crucial role, and I rely on them. I don't think I realistically have a choice here.

If there truly is a God up there who gives a crap that I know the real, honest-to-dog truth about him, her, or it, then he, she, or it'll be able to set up a way for me to receive that truth that can be told apart, based on imperfect perception and experience, from all of the manifestly false and made-up doctrines and claims floating around out there.

The idea that God really exists, but looks exactly like all the made-up crap people have been foisting on each other for millenia, until and unless one has read "Book X", written by Philosophy of Religion professor Dr. Y, is simply not worthy of being taken seriously.

[_Ceeboo]

Wow!

This thread seems to have recently taken a sharp and direct turn to bizarro-land!

(BTW- can you really get a prostate massage?)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Sethbag]

(BTW- can you really get a prostrate massage?)

I've never actually experienced a massage other than prostrate. ;-)

I know you meant to refer to prostate massage, which I have not experienced. I'll just have to take others' word on that one.

[_beefcalf]

Stak,

In asking this question...

So... what's the minimum amount of educayshun someone must have to qualify to hold, and voice, their opinion about Mormonism?

A list of the right books to read, a list of the correct majors to study, a list of the appropriate degrees earned... where is the line, Stak?

...I am responding to your apparent attitude that some folks just aren't educated enough to post intelligently about the topic of Mormonism. So, where is the line, Stak?

I don't want a reading list. It appears you do. I don't intend on keeping my mouth shut until after I've completed my third PhD, but it appears that you might prefer that I do.

Perhaps I've been misreading you all these months, that I was projecting, or imagining things. But then you start hurling insults like 'dawkfags'... Whoa!

I'm simply going to suggest that instead of pointing out how uneducated people here are, how unqualified they are to speak their minds, why don't you just educate them. Provide the argument. Don't give them a reading list, read them the book. Lot's of people come here to learn. You can probably teach us a lot. Why not try?

As for me referencing your gf, and your insinuation that I'm somehow digging dirt on you, or unfairly straying outside the bounds of courtesy; I'm not. I read that post when you posted it, months and months ago, and (apparently incorrectly) thought it was something you wanted the board to know about yourself. I'm not going to apologize for bringing it up because I wasn't being sneaky or underhanded or mean-spirited in mentioning it. I was making the point that even you, you who have such an apparently tenuous connection to Mormonism, are qualified to speak your opinion on the topic, along with everyone else here.

Dude: chill.

[_Aristotle Smith]

If this is all about whether or not thorough, college-level knowledge of the state of philosophy of science, or about philosophy of religion, is required before anyone may opine on matters scientific or religious, then I come down on the "nay" side. I'm sure there's a lot to those disciplines, and I'm sure it's all very interesting and possibly even important, but a lot of it, as far as I can tell in my ignorant state, doesn't translate down to the every day practice or study of either science, or religion, by real people.

It's simple, know something about which you want to opine. No one is asking for college level knowledge about anything. That's a red herring that people like to hold up to avoid dealing with the real issue. "I don't know and I don't care" is always a perfectly valid, and honest response. However, being a religious or atheist fundie does not give one absolute insight into what the other half believes. Both sides are guilty of this.

When I was studying physics (I changed over to computers after earning a minor, didn't finish the major), we measured things, we observed things, we talked about the interrelationships between things, and with the exception of some aspects of quantum physics, didn't get too wrapped around the axle asking ourselves questions like what does "exist" even mean?

If you look at the history of science, scientists don't concern themselves with philosophical matters during periods of stability. However, scientists do start to care about philosophy during what Kuhn would call "revolutionary science." For example, Newton's theory of gravitation was seen as suspect by quite a few people at the time because it seemed to reintroduce occult forces back into science. Overcoming this objection was done philosophically, not scientifically, because it concerned what it meant to do science, something which is prior to the actual science. We are not in a period of "revolutionary science" and so it is to be expected that scientists showed little concern for philosophical matters.

[_Nightlion]

didn't get too wrapped around the axle asking ourselves questions like what does "exist" even mean?

Love the metaphor Sethbag. Is it just me or is everyone feeling like they have run out of that STUFF they have been putting in our water to dumb down and unsex everyone? Probably sage advice to go ask the thoughts of men about religion. They have a proven track record with God for getting him just right....?...well...or not.

[_MrStakhanovite]

How about this Sport, think to yourself, “ Hmmmmm, what topic would I like to have a reasonable conversation about…” Then go find something to read/listen to about that topic. Have fun.

When someone tells you to actually read a book, you and the blow buddies do the whole, “WELL I GUESS I NEED A PHD TO POST HUH” when all that is being suggested is you read a book on the topic.

Now…

...I am responding to your apparent attitude that some folks just aren't educated enough to post intelligently about the topic of Mormonism. So, where is the line, Stak?

I don't want a reading list. It appears you do. I don't intend on keeping my mouth shut until after I've completed my third PhD, but it appears that you might prefer that I do.

I don’t know how to make it any simpler…

BEEFCALF: I’d like to tell people the New Testament sucks as a guide for ethics…

*BEEFCALF* reads a book on Christian ethics

BEEFCALF: I’m now ready to discuss and critique Christian ethics

Where does all this BS about going to college and PhDs come from? All I’m asking is when you midgets come rolling out of the LDS lollipop guild to criticize theism writ large, have some kind of idea what the hell you’re talking about.

I don’t care what your ties to Mormonism are, I have no idea who brought that into the conversation. I don’t care if you went to college or not, none of that hinders your ability to make the adult choice of reading a book before spouting off.

To lazy to read a book or listen to an audio version, but still want to assert stupid things? You get what you get. This is my guess.

[_beefcalf]

What makes you think I've never read any books on the topic we are all here to discuss?

If you think I've dropped the ball on a specific criticism I've made, please, please point it out to me. Simply posting that I need to read more books is not helping me.

[_MrStakhanovite]

What makes you think I've never read any books on the topic we are all here to discuss?

If you think I've dropped the ball on a specific criticism I've made, please, please point it out to me. Simply posting that I need to read more books is not helping me.

You really want to get into that with me?

I could start here.