The Top Ten and Only Reasons to be a True Believer

[Guest]

1. Personal religious experience.
2. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
3. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
4. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
5. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
6. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
7. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
8. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
9. Personal religious experience is reliably interpreted by Mormonism.
10. It is impossible to question reasons 1 through 9.

Most Mormons I know can never get past reason #1... But, I love a challenge. So, I formally request anyone to find flaw--or room for development--in the following argument:

Qualifications:
By "interpretation", I mean to discern or perceive religious meaning or significance which may justify specific religious claims.
By "personal religious experience", I mean any experience which would lead someone to discern or perceive religious meaning or significance which may justify specific religious claims.
By "reliable method", I mean any method which does not lead to contradiction.
By "problematic discrepancies", I mean any disagreement between interpretation of any religious experience.

Premise: Religious experience requires interpretation.

Contention: Within the Mormon paradigm, any method for interpreting religious experience is circularly dependent upon an interpretation of religious experience--begging the question--and is therefore, unreliable as the necessary foundation for Mormon belief.

In other words...
1) Within Mormonism, there is no reliable method for interpreting and resolving problematic discrepancies between interpretations of religious experiences which doesn't serve itself, resolving nothing.
2) Mormonism, in nearly every significant aspect, relies upon the claim that there are reliable methods to interpret spiritual experiences which resolve these discrepancies.
3) Until these discrepancies are resolved, judgment concerning whether Mormon interpretation can be trusted over contrary interpretation, at best, cannot be made in favor of Mormonism, if any judgement can be made at all.

Simple enough?

Yep, but I suspect many will still miss the point and maybe ramble on about the perceived problems in atheistic methods of interpretation, but certainly to distract from direct response to my argument by explaining what follows from the presupposition that Mormonism serves as a reliable interpreter. Sorry, this is the first and foremost supposition I question. I've specifically framed my argument from a perspective independent of these sectarian interpretations, so if you miss it, expect my words to sound repetitive. I hope we can simply talk about emotion and avoid many of these contingent distractions, which often involve emotional accusations.

It's not so difficult. Dispute or respond directly to my argument.

And yes, I realize this is an attempt to make a sweeping upheaval of all Mormon thought. I am an ex-mormon, after all.

Let the dissonance roll...

[_Tobin]

Yes, I don't understand the question. My recommended approach is assume that Mormonism is not true. The only reason to believe it is true is if God tells you it is which seems to be all 10 of your reasons to be a true believer in the first place. Otherwise, go find something else to do. I hear fishing is a good hobby.

[_Alfredo]

The only reason to believe it is true is if God tells you it is which seems to be all 10 of your reasons to be a true believer in the first place.

Let me explain using your example.

The experience of having God tell you Mormonism is true requires interpretation. Which interpretation should I favor and why?

Should I believe God actually is Mormon, or should I believe some other religion is true and this experience is to be interpreted as a false revelation? (Much the same way an apologist would claim a Muslim's experience of being told by God that Islam is the only true religion is a false revelation.)

[_Tobin]

The experience of having God tell you Mormonism is true requires interpretation. Which interpretation should I favor and why? Should I believe God actually is Mormon, or should I believe some other religion is true and this experience is to be interpreted as a false revelation?

I wouldn't assume anything. I think it depends on the person what threshhold of proof they will accept. For myself as I reflect on my experience with God, there are a few things that convince me it was true:
1) It was unlooked for and unexpected.
2) It occurred in a place that no physical being could have possibly entered unseen and unheard.
3) I was not alone and shared the experience with another person. So, unless someone gassed the place with a psychotic agent (and I seriously doubt that), it happened.
4) It is clear as day in my memory. I can remember every exact detail of the event. It had that profound an impact on me.
5) And interestingly, I never want to have another experience like that again.

[_Franktalk]

I think you have a vision of spiritual communication that is not true. I will tell you that to have the core gospel witnessed by the Holy Ghost is easy if indeed you truly seek. Beyond that little is witnessed to. But there are people who have different gifts from God. Some can discern scripture. Some can heal the sick. Some have the gift of prophecy. Some the gift of wisdom. So to try and see a flat belief system that fits all is not Biblical at all. Many people don't have visions but they see truth in the visions of others. Many people want religion to be true but they are of the world and have no personal witness at all. Many people know in their hearts that scripture has some kind of special place but could not tell you why.

So boil down your issue into simple terms and ask away. You will not like what I say.

[_Alfredo]

The experience of having God tell you Mormonism is true requires interpretation. Which interpretation should I favor and why? Should I believe God actually is Mormon, or should I believe some other religion is true and this experience is to be interpreted as a false revelation?

I wouldn't assume anything. I think it depends on the person what threshhold of proof they will accept. For myself as I reflect on my experience with God, there are a few things that convince me it was true:
1) It was unlooked for and unexpected.
2) It occurred in a place that no physical being could have possibly entered unseen and unheard.
3) I was not alone and shared the experience with another person. So, unless someone gassed the place with a psychotic agent (and I seriously doubt that), it happened.
4) It is clear as day in my memory. I can remember every exact detail of the event. It had that profound an impact on me.
5) And interestingly, I never want to have another experience like that again.

It seems that you believe refuting any natural interpretation of religious experience is sufficient to dismiss my argument, but that still misses the point.

While I only think 1 of your points is interesting, I'll address all of them by pointing out that your response still relies upon an implied sort of spiritual mathematics for which only certain types of religious experiences are reliable. That is, your experience is still heavily interpreted. I think you should consider what Franktalk has said concerning the variety of religious experience and then explain why you believe those who would interpret your experience differently don't have the same rights to the experiences which led them to that contrary interpretation.

For the sake of the discussion between you and I, I will grant that some personal experiences have supernatural origin.

How do you know your experience did not originate in some supernatural source which contradicts your interpretation? How can you favor any supernatural interpretation over another?

To present a specific example which address your most interesting point, what if your experience was of an alien who likes to pretend he's God? After all, there are reports of group extra-terrestrial experiences.

[_Alfredo]

I think you have a vision of spiritual communication that is not true. I will tell you that to have the core gospel witnessed by the Holy Ghost is easy if indeed you truly seek. Beyond that little is witnessed to. But there are people who have different gifts from God. Some can discern scripture. Some can heal the sick. Some have the gift of prophecy. Some the gift of wisdom. So to try and see a flat belief system that fits all is not Biblical at all. Many people don't have visions but they see truth in the visions of others. Many people want religion to be true but they are of the world and have no personal witness at all. Many people know in their hearts that scripture has some kind of special place but could not tell you why.

So boil down your issue into simple terms and ask away. You will not like what I say.

I'm sure I'll enjoy your future comments as I have these.

Your view of spiritual communication is an interpretation based upon what...?

If I could be granted one guess, I'd suppose that you came to this understanding of spiritual communication somehow through an act of spiritual communication?

[_Mooseman]

5) And interestingly, I never want to have another experience like that again.

Been lurking a long time. You got me with this. IYDM Why? Afraid?

Two of my friends have told me that when they were thinking about God they got scared. One broke down and cried but was spooked off and turned away.

[_Franktalk]

Your view of spiritual communication is an interpretation based upon what...?

If I could be granted one guess, I'd suppose that you came to this understanding of spiritual communication somehow through an act of spiritual communication?

You would be wrong. It is obvious that many people say they are witnessed by the Holy Spirit. Yet they are all over the map as to the exact message they obtained. There is only one truth and God is not a God of confusion. So it is man that says one thing or another thing. The warm cozy feelings that were misinterpreted run rampant among seekers. It is an obvious observation of man that leads me to this conclusion.

My personal spiritual experience is my own and I offer no proof what so ever. Except that before my experiences I was a different person. My change in behavior was caused by my spiritual communication.

[_Franktalk]

Been lurking a long time. You got me with this. IYDM Why? Afraid?

Two of my friends have told me that when they were thinking about God they got scared. One broke down and cried but was spooked off and turned away.

Maybe I can shed some light on this.

Let me step back for a moment and lay some ground work. We are here to know good from evil. The light of Christ or as I call it our moral rudder can discern good from evil. But we can listen to it or ignore it. But discernment requires that we love God. Let me outline the progression that takes place that leads to discernment.

1. We love God - When one recognizes that there is a God and forms a view of our place verses God's place one can start to love God for who He is.
2. We understand that it is God that holds the power for everything. Everything we see and touch came into being as a result of God's work.
3. We trust God - With a mixture of fear for the power of God and the love of God for allowing us this life in the flesh we trust that He has our best interest at heart. This is an extension of the love of God. Blind trust that He who makes the universe and sets the laws loves us and wishes us the best life possible. But we must know Him well enough to know that what He desires is not for the world but for us as a spirit. This is separate from the world. We must see that God is focused on our spirit and not the world. We may not even know what a spirit is at this point.
4. We cast off the world - So far things have been easy and most get to stage 3. But this one is not easy. You must embrace that this world is but a temporary existence for our spirit to learn. You must cut the ties that bind with the world. Your own body is of the world and is not you. It is a shell and nothing more. You feel lost and not attached to anything. You wonder why am I here. You lose your footing in the world, it becomes distant, it appears as an illusion. A fog that surrounds you and you see it as distant. You stop your emotional attachment to the world but you start to see others as spirits. You separate out what you see from what is actually there. Everything around you has been placed there by God so that you can enjoy it or as a test for you. Evil and good get divided sharply. The spiritual discernment which you hear about is so near. The world stands between you and spiritual discernment. You must remove the world before the spirit will talk with you. The spirit talks to spirit. The spirit does not talk to the world. Remove the world and the door opens. The door was always opened but the world stood in the way. The ideas of men lose their hold on you. The things that most men hold as truth become just ideas and nothing more. What you thought you knew becomes wrong or just words of men. If this does not happen then you have not cast off the world. Those who say that they can do both, hold the truth of man, and hold the truth of God are fools.
5. The world will hate you - The world is not your friend and has never been your friend. If you embraced the world it gave you treats to keep you. But when the world knows you have cast it off you become a target. So get ready. With spiritual discernment comes spiritual warfare. When some get a taste of this they run back to the world. You must have spiritual strength. I ask for strength daily and I need it. Some get to this point and fear overwhelms them as they even think of casting off the world. Satan and his workers will know what you are doing. Things will happen that don't make sense. In time spiritual discernment will sort out all of the confusion but some will run back to what is solid and what is familiar.
6. Scripture opens - When your eyes are opened by the spirit you will see more, hear more, and feel more.