John 3:61

[_zeezrom]

They enlist because they are willing to fight for their country.

Maybe that is what Christ intended to do. Maybe He never intended to die but rather fix problems. Maybe Heavenly Father also sent his son in greatest hopes as well. It turns out people figured out a way to kill him despite God's greatest hopes.

[Guest]

The idea that sin is somehow stuff which can be transferred is what I found most difficult to accept in primary class.

I don't see how the atonement can have positive moral value any more than paying a debt, going to jail, or being tortured for another person's crimes can morally resolve them of those crimes.

If we children of God are predetermined to never reach perfection in this life, I don't see the meaning inherent in the spiritual calculation that one can subtract the sinful difference or evil from a person, by adding those sins to the collection of evil another child of God is responsible for.

It seems a meaningless step in a process which is meant to provide the ultimate realization of meaning... If there is no other reason to exist in the lower kingdoms other than sin, why not transfer all of this sin-stuff to Jesus in the way all other sin-stuff is transferred to Jesus?

If you might retort that it's not a question of whether evil can be transferred, but if the children of God are willing to transfer it... We can only assume that whatever led them to not transfer their sins is not of God, but of the Devil. On this view, we're more dark pawns for serving the saint's journey through darkness we are doomed to create than any beings with a similar chance to what the saint's have... apparently due to their inherently good nature. All because now we have this suggestion that evil is something inherent within us that some of us we are incapable of being willing to transfer, even after being offered the chance.

But what about this particular "atonement-resisting" sin-stuff which causes them to be unwilling can't be transferred in the same manner sin-stuff is transferred in the atonement? Would there be nothing of their moral being left?

That is, what explains the difference between the evil which can be transferred to Jesus in atonement and the evil which for some reason cannot and will ultimately doom us to eternal judgment?

[_Chap]

They enlist because they are willing to fight for their country.

Maybe that is what Christ intended to do. Maybe He never intended to die but rather fix problems. Maybe Heavenly Father also sent his son in greatest hopes as well. It turns out people figured out a way to kill him despite God's greatest hopes.

Ahem. Matthew 26:

47And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

48Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.

51And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Jesus makes it perfectly plain that if he wants to save his life he can call up angelic air support, blow his enemies away, and walk away safely. But he won't, because he has to die.

There is no Biblical support for the 'good try, but the poor kid got wasted by an IED' version of the Jesus story.

[_CaliforniaKid]

The idea that sin is somehow stuff which can be transferred is what I found most difficult to accept in primary class.

I don't see how the atonement can have positive moral value any more than paying a debt, going to jail, or being tortured for another person's crimes can morally resolve them of those crimes.

Yep.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Jesus makes it perfectly plain that if he wants to save his life he can call up angelic air support, blow his enemies away, and walk away safely. But he won't, because he has to die.

There is no Biblical support for the 'good try, but the poor kid got wasted by an IED' version of the Jesus story.

Yep x2.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hrm... Good point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FG6iNe_3rs

- VRDRC

[_Chap]

Hrm... Good point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FG6iNe_3rs

- VRDRC

I would not make anybody whose feelings might be hurt watch this. But if I am ever tempted to let ... that story ... get back into my head, a few minutes from Bill Maher bring me back to reality.

No. That stuff was seriously crazy. I don't believe it, and I'm glad I don't believe it any more.

[_zeezrom]

Chap,

Ahem. Why do people tell me that the world really wasn't flooded even though the Bible clearly makes that very claim? Um, because the authors made it up for whatever reason be it good or bad (not saying which).

Regarding the Matthew verses: how do you know Jesus actually said that?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 14: It's really OK. Women really can speak in church. They do it all the time, you see?

Why do we get to be liberal with some parts and not others? Is there some rule book?

[_Chap]

Chap,

Ahem. Why do people tell me that the world really wasn't flooded even though the Bible clearly makes that very claim? Um, because the authors made it up for whatever reason be it good or bad (not saying which).

Regarding the Matthew verses: how do you know Jesus actually said that?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 14: It's really OK. Women really can speak in church. They do it all the time, you see?

Why do we get to be liberal with some parts and not others? Is there some rule book?

You had better ask someone who believes in that religion. I don't any more. But I don't see how anybody who believes in it can read the Bible and swallow the idea that Jesus was an accidental casualty.

Of course if you want to make up a different story, feel free. But it will be your own private fiction, rather than a shared one.

[_MCB]

I cannot tell anyone what to believe in. I can only tell others what I believe in. Other than that, you might want to search in http://old.usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.shtml for some commonly explained beliefs of my faith tradition.

I, by myself, really don't have that many answers.