The FLOOD of NOAH did happen, but not as the Church teaches

[_Daheshist]

There is no reason to conclude that the story of Noah is a "fairy tale". It MAY be, but we KNOW that a comet hit the Indian Ocean about 3400 B.C., and there was massive rainfall and snowfall all over the planet at that time. We also KNOW that the Valley of Ararat flooded about that time. These facts do not PROVE the story of Noah, but these facts do not prove Noah never existed or that the Ark never existed. The stone anchors are still around, to be viewed. Again, not "proof". There is no way to "prove" the story of Noah, unless the Ark is found, and it won't be, because the wood was too valuable NOT to be used for housing and cooking and heating for generations to come. Also, the dried dung in the Ark makes excellent heating fuel as well. So, there is no Ark on some ledge up on Mount Ararat waiting to be found. But, the stones used to anchor the ship still exist, and you can see photos of them online: "Anchor stones of Noah" (google).

As far as 600 "years". The ancients counted "moons" as "years". The Sumerians counted "days" as years, which is why in their list of kings it says that such-and-such a king ruled for "38,873 years". Adam lived for 73 years, or about 930 moons. Noah lived over 600 Moons, or about 52 years.

If the Flood of Noah was local, and not universal, it can work.

Talking Animals

Jonah and the Whale. Probably a "parable" and not literal. I know of no incident of a man living in a whale for three days and nights. I've heard of one such incident, but not sure if it can be documented as real. As far as animals "speaking". My dogs told me many things without speaking: I am hungry, I am happy, I am disappointed, I am angry, I am scared, I need to poop, Go “F” yourself, etc. I knew what they were saying simply by their expressions.

Jesus Did Not Know About Germs

I don't think Jesus wanted people not to wash their hands. He said what comes out of the mouth makes one defiled (i.e. lying, deceit); not what goes in. "Defiled" means unclean for the Temple; it has no reference to other kinds of uncleanliness or unhealthy behavior. I don't think Jesus knew about germs. I don't think He was all-knowing as a man. I think He knew what other knew, but He could "discern" what was true and what was not true.

Sun Standing Still in the Sky

Yes! Still happens ocassionally. We call it a Lunar Eclipse; when the Moon passed in front of the Sun. The ancient counted as "one day" the Sun rising then it went "dark". The Sun did not go "down" that "day". Then when the Sun shone again, in the midst of the sky, that was the beginning of another "Day" and the Sun would go down on that Day. So, when the ancients wrote "the Sun arose and stood still in the sky and did not go down that day" it means an eclipse.

The Sacrifice of Isaac by Abraham

Do I believe that God was "testing" Abraham, telling him to sacrifice Isaac, as a test? Yes. I will believe it until I have proof Abraham didn't exist. I believe he did. I don't KNOW that happened, but I believe it. Why would God do that? Testing him. Jehovah is not all-seeing nor all-powerful, and has to "test" his messengers sometimes.

Continents Split After Eden

No. I do not believe the continents split apart in the days of "Peleg" when "the earth was divided". Earth is "land" in HEbrew and no reference to a planet. The "land" being divided can mean that it was divided between tribes, etc. The true Adamites are those who are Rh-Negative, like me; with no "monkey blood" (Rh-Positive). But all become Adamites eventually via reincarnation, but only "old souls" do. Only when your soul has had enough experiences to mature it in spirituality.

To Paul O.

You are angry at God and religion because both seem to be against you, because you are homosexual. Wicca is not anti-gay. You should try that. In Daheshism, homosexuals have an "extra burden" in getting back to the Heavenly Planets, but that is because you've been there already, and blew it. Should you have an equal chance again for it? Would that be fair? The Law of Karma is always fair. If you do not desire the Heavenly Planets, then there is no reason you should strive to attain them. Live a good life, filled with good works, and you'll be reincarnated with a strong and healthy body and mind. But if you want to go back to the Heavenly Planets, you must become a Eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

I believe that you also posit that we may not all be literal descendants of Adam and Eve. And that the continents may have not split post Eden. Where are you on talking donkeys or the sun being stopped in the sky?

And all those wonderful animals on the ark made by a 600 year old man and his three sons. What a joke! It's a fairy tale straight from the book of fairy tales, the Bible.

And how about Jonah being swallowed up by a giant fish? Do you believe that tall tale too, bcspace?

How about Abraham getting ready to thrust a sharp blade right into his dear son's flesh and bleed him like a stuffed pig for jehovah-god? Do you believe that one too?

And, what about Jesus who said it was OK to eat with unwashed hands, even after taking a bathroom break, I suppose. Do you eat with unwashed hands after you go to the bathroom -- cuzz Jesus said it won't defile you. I suspect his followers didn't wash their germy hands much because of that unscientific teaching. Jesus didn't know a damn thing about germs. He was ignorant and led many people to a germy death full of bacteria and other little things that crawl about.

Paul O

[_Buffalo]

bcspace, how did a local flood destroy all flesh from off the face of the earth?

I've never proposed that.

That's what canonized scripture claims.

Not only official doctrine, but given by revelation. And you know it's wrong.

[_Shulem]

To Paul O.

You are angry at God and religion because both seem to be against you, because you are homosexual. Wicca is not anti-gay. You should try that. In Daheshism, homosexuals have an "extra burden" in getting back to the Heavenly Planets, but that is because you've been there already, and blew it. Should you have an equal chance again for it? Would that be fair? The Law of Karma is always fair. If you do not desire the Heavenly Planets, then there is no reason you should strive to attain them. Live a good life, filled with good works, and you'll be reincarnated with a strong and healthy body and mind. But if you want to go back to the Heavenly Planets, you must become a Eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

Your silly religion is just as bad as Mormonism. What a joke!

I'm shaking in my boots. You can take your cult and shove it.

Paul O

[_bcspace]

Folks....you need to remember something here! The ancient Hebrews did not know of a round ball called "Planet Earth". They had no concept of it. The Hebrew word translated "earth" in English Bible is "eretz" and means simply "land" and more specifically, the flat fertile tilled land. It means the land you can grow things on useful to you and your tribe

Amen.

I've never proposed that.

That's what canonized scripture claims.

See eretz directly above.

I believe that you also posit that we may not all be literal descendants of Adam and Eve.

There are ways in which this can still be true, both literally and figuratively.

And that the continents may have not split post Eden.

Agreed. Still at 95%.

Where are you on talking donkeys

Angel talking through donkey, just as the scripture says.

or the sun being stopped in the sky?

Why could God not have accomplished it or something that looked like it?

[_SteelHead]

Bc,
How does a local flood correlate with a baptism by immersion of the planet?

[_moksha]

How does a local flood correlate with a baptism by immersion of the planet?

Sometimes a sprinkle has to do.

[_Daheshist]

To Paul O: Why would you be shaking in your boots....even sarcastically? If you live a life doing good to others, you have nothing to fear in the world-to-come. Unless you shed innocent blood, or lead people to do so, you have nothing to fear in the world-to-come. Believing in Daheshism or Dr. Dahesh is not required, the Law of Karma is operative upon all things animate and inanimate. We are judged according to our works; not anything else. Most Mormons don't believe that, or they would not have treated me the way they did. Good luck to them becoming Gods and Goddesses! I only hope I am THERE to see their faces when their dead relatives tell them the truth about Joseph Smith! Check out the UNITY churches, they are very pro-gay and accepting of gays "as they are": www.unity.org


To Nightlion: No, Nightlion, I have not heard of those stones you are talking about. Why don't you inform us of them in another thread?

To bcspace: If you belonged to the Wards I attended from 1979 to 1989, and said you did not believe that the continents were split in the days of Peleg, or that the Earth was covered by water in full immersion (because it needed to be baptized), or that Adam and Eve were not Anglo-Saxon looking white people, or there was absolutely NO DEATH before the Fall (the cells in the fruit that Adam and Eve ate did not die...so their dung was alive) or that all races descended from the three sons of Noah and their wives, or that all languages came from the Tower of Babel, or that dinosaurs are the remnants of creatures from other worlds, or that "Negroes" were once cursed but now "forgiven" because of the supplications of Spencer W. Kimball, the Bishop would take you into his office, point his finger in your face ONE HALF INCH FROM YOUR NOSE (as they did to my face many times) and say: "YOU'RE GOING AGAINST THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH AND THE LIVING PROPHETS!" (as they did me). I guarantee it. IF the Church has now "changed" and is more tolerant of differing views...hallelujah!!! It's about time.

To Paul O.

You are angry at God and religion because both seem to be against you, because you are homosexual. Wicca is not anti-gay. You should try that. In Daheshism, homosexuals have an "extra burden" in getting back to the Heavenly Planets, but that is because you've been there already, and blew it. Should you have an equal chance again for it? Would that be fair? The Law of Karma is always fair. If you do not desire the Heavenly Planets, then there is no reason you should strive to attain them. Live a good life, filled with good works, and you'll be reincarnated with a strong and healthy body and mind. But if you want to go back to the Heavenly Planets, you must become a Eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

Your silly religion is just as bad as Mormonism. What a joke!

I'm shaking in my boots. You can take your cult and shove it.

Paul O

[_bcspace]

Bc,
How does a local flood correlate with a baptism by immersion of the planet?

It doesn't. I've already mentioned that, by extension, I don't agree with the baptism of the earth doctrine.

[_SteelHead]

Bc,
How does a local flood correlate with a baptism by immersion of the planet?

It doesn't. I've already mentioned that, by extension, I don't agree with the baptism of the earth doctrine.

Ah, by your statement you then admit it was doctrine.

Why is ok then for you to disagree with doctrine?

[_maklelan]

The story fo Noah comes from Armenia, or ancient Urartu. The ancient Hebrew had no vowels, so that land is callred RRT.

Actually the Hebrew is אררט, or 'rrt. The aleph generally indicates an /a/ quality vowel.

When Hebrew got vowels, about 600 A.D., the scribes had to "en-vowel" every word in the Hebrew text.

Hebrew didn't "get vowels" around 600 CE. The language itself uses vowels, but the script could only express a few of them (yod, aleph, ayin, he, waw). Down to the present day, normal written Hebrew does not use vowels. Vowels were developed for the text of the Hebrew Bible because the language had stopped being used for speaking and comprehension was more difficult. Different attempts to vocalize the text of the Hebrew Bible date back to well before 600 CE, but the Masoretic system, which is the one that became standard, began to be developed around that time.

But, they did not know what "RRT" meant or where it was. So, they simply used an "A"......."A"R"A"R"A"T.

Neither claims are true. The Septuagint, translated around 200-100 BCE, renders Αραρατ, or Ararat. Jerome's Vulgate, translated around 400 CE, renders the Hebrew "mountains of Ararat" with montes Armeniae. The eastern Christian traditions had another traditional location for the mountain, which I'll get to later, but the western tradition became standardized pretty quickly.

At the time, there was no mountain named "Ararat".

Of course not. Genesis simply mentions a region called Ararat, which is obviously a Hebrew version of the Assyrian Urartu (Babylonian Urashtu).

The Mountain now named "Ararat" was not named that until the 9th century, by Christians living there. It was called by the Turks Agra Dag (Angry Mountain) and by the Armenians "Masis". The Kurds called it something else, but never in its history until then was it ever called "Ararat".

Nope. Jerome interpreted Josephus' description as a reference to the highest peak in Armenia, then called Masis. That was around 400 CE.

Bible scholars today are sure that "RRT" does not refer to "Mount Ararat" but in fact to "uRaRTu"; the ancient land of Armenia.

This is not true. The words "Ararat" and "Urartu" refer to the exact same place, they're just two different transliterations of versions of the name from two different languages. In some Assyrian texts, it's spelled Uratri or Uruatri.

It means in Akkadian "lava flows".

What is your source for this? I can find no known meaning in any of my resources.

Indeed, Armenia has a LOT of dead volcanoes is was known as the Land of Lava Flows. So, "RRT" refers to ancient Armenia, long before it was called "Armenia".

Not too long. The name Armenia dates to Herodotus, and that section of Genesis only dates to around four centuries earlier.

The ancient people of Urartu spoke Urartian, a language very similar to Sumerian. Some scholars think the Sumerians were in fact "colonists" from Urartu.

No they don't. Sumerian is a language isolate. Urartian is related to Hurrian, and the two languages are the only members of their language family. A broader classification called Alarodian has been proposed as a kind of umbrella family over the Northeast Caucasian and Hurro-Urartian languages, but that's not been very successful.

According to local Armenian legend, Noah was named Nokhcht (nawghkkhhchtd), and, indeed, the southern plain of the Valley of Armenia is called by this name, and the capital is "Nokhcht-evan" (Place of Nokhcht). According to legend, "Nokhct" means "He came down" or "He descended [from heaven]".

The legend is that it means "Place of Descent," although some think it means "first landing."

Again, the ancient language of Urartu is not spoken anywhere today, and Armenian is not that language. Armenians is related to ancient Persian and also Greek. There are some similarities between Urartian and the language spoken by the Dagistanis; a people just east of Chechnya.

The Valley of the Aras River, also called the Valley or Ararat, is closed on all sides by high mountains. Upon these mountains are UNfertile lava flows. Nothing but some grass grows on these lava flows that only the most hearty of goats have much trouble digesting it. There are no trees at all on the lava flows. They are barren except for some inedible crab-grass. The only fertile part of the Valley of Armenia is the valley floor, which is extremely fertile, and great for growing grapes. Noah is called a "husbandman" (grape-grower). That means, if the Valley is flooded, people and animals could not live on the surrounding hills, because even their sheep could not survive in the hills.

Very little rain or moisture in the Valley of the Aras (Armenia). However, in 3400 B.C. a comet hit the Indian ocean about 400 miles southeast of Madagascar. Much proof for this.

Are you referring to the Burckle Crater?

The comet hit the ocean, and set trillions of tons of water vapor into the stratosphere, which came down, all over the earth, as rain in the warmer climates and snow in the colder ones. This is what "froze" the mammaths of Siberia. This is what "froze" the "Ice Man" who was discovered only in recent years in the Alps. He was "froze" about 3400 B.C. He was an unlucky guy to be up in the Alps when the comet hit.

Actually he was killed by a blow to the head that followed being hit by an arrow that was subsequently removed, and he died around 3300 BCE.

Now, did the water vapor "cover" the entire earth 15 feet above Mount Everest, and most Fundies believe? No! Certainly, there was "flooding" all over the Earth, and many lowlands were flooded, rain and snow just about everywhere, but, again, the Earth was not "baptized" by total immersion ion as the Church used to teach.

But, the Valley of Armenia was flooded. Why? Because the Aras River must pass through a gorge called the Kor-E Gorge, which is over 50 miles. Very narrow! a lot narrower I'm sure in 3400 B.C. On each side of the gorge are high cliffs. Excessive rain (which Armenia rarely gets) would have caused many mud-slides, and debris, blocking and clogging the Kor-E gorge. This would be like plugging the drain in a bath tub. The water had no place to go but up.

Noah had to have "anchors" so his Ark would not travel out the gorge once it became unblocked, and so the Ark would not crash to pieces on the sides of the Valley; which has many hills. These Anchor stones can still be found near Nakhchtevan (the Place of Noah); which is the southern half of the Valley of Armenia.

If the rains lasted for "40 days" (meaning many days and nights), the people would not be saved by climbing up on the nearby hills or mountains. There would be nothing to eat. The animals would not be able to eat the kind of grass that grows there still today. The people would have slaughtered the animals for food, but all food would be gone in about a week or two, and the people could have survived maybe a week without food then they would be dead.

That's a whole lot of utter nonsense.

The Hebrew does NOT say that the Ark "rested on mount Ararat" and so many stupid Fundies think.

Those stupid Fundies. I bet they don't even know Hebrew.

The Hebrews says that the Ark rested "on the high places of Urartu".

"Upon the mountains of Ararat," to be literal. It does not say "high places."

That means on the lava slow hills surrounding the valley floor. The word used in Hebrew is "Hariym" (hills, mountains). The name Har Megiddo is used for "Mount Megiddo" which is only about three stories high, so "high mountains" is a mistranslation.

First, Tel Megiddo is quite a bit larger than three stories, but the word הר can refer to small and large mountains.

"Hariym" simply mean "high places" and can mean a small hill or a great mountain.

No, it does not mean "high places." It refers to hills and mountains, and it comes from an obscure root that likely means "to loom over."

The Ark of Noah did not float from Sea-Level in North Carolina and land up resting on top of Mount Ararat, a mountain 14,000 feet high! Such is nonsense in the extreme. The Ark was anchored, and probably did not move much; no more than a fat kid in an inner-tube resting in a pool. There was no reason to "sail" or move around. The Ark was square, not pointed like a ship. The last thing Noah wanted was to move around and dash the Ark to pieces on the hills or the sides of the gorge. That's why he anchored it. Google: "anchor stones of Noah" to see photos of the anchor stones which still survive.

Yeah, that's much more believable.

The wood of Noah's ship would not survive today until it was buried within a few years after the flood. The floor of the valley of Armenia was covered in forest, and probably had a lot of forest left in Noah's day, but today there are few trees, because the land must be farmed, and also because people have used wood for building and fuel for cooking and heat for thousands of years there. Over thousands of years, people cut down the trees, and then they even dig up the stumps, for fuel for heating and cokking. Rapa Nui (Easter Island) was once covered in trees. Now it is barren; because of people use wood for heat and cooking. Noah and his family would be INSANE to "NOT" use the wood of the Ark for building and for fuel, for generations after that. Otherwise, the wood would have rotted away and been useless to them after the Flood. So, don't except to find Noah's Ark somewhere in Armenia today. Just over about 100 years, the descendants of Noah would have used all the wood for fuel for cooking and heating and for beams for their houses. And the beams would have rotted away long ago.

The Hebrew does NOT say that the flood covered the entire planet Earth. The ancient Hebrews had no concept of a ball floating in space called "Earth".

They did have a concept of a circular disc containing all the land of the "earth." ארץ could mean "land," or "earth."

The Hebrew says that the flood covered the entire "eretz" (land) by 35 cubits (the cubit is the space between the elbow and the end of the thumb). It is absolutely possible for the Valley of Armenia to have been flooded in this manner!

And why would you think this means ancient Hebrews couldn't have thought it happened?

The "land" (eretz) was the plain, the level ground, the fertile level ground upon which animals ate and things could be grown. A perfect description of the valley floor of the valley of Armenia.

The word does not specify any specific shape to the land.

Type in "Map of Armenia" and you'll see how the Valley of the Aras can fill up like a bowel, and how narrow the gorge is that drains the Aras river! Also Google "Comet his the Indian ocean in 3400 B.C." and you'll read more about the comet that send so much water vapor into orbit around the planet, that came down as rain and snow. It really happened.

There is a "mound" in central Nokhchtevan, which locals say is the burial place of Noah. Google it, and you'll see it.

Stunning.