Still Baptizing Jews

[_sock puppet]

If some shaman wants to pretend that I am part of his heavenly congregation, I don't see that it harms me in the least. I find this to be a ridiculous misunderstanding. Spiritual conversion in the afterlife is completely voluntary in Mormon doctrine. The baptism will mean nothing but an act of devotion and compassion unless the person consents to conversion in that world. What's the beef? I don't get it. I think it's sad that people would bully the Mormons about a religious practice that harms exactly no one.

True, ordinances for the dead are only Mormons going through motions/chanting pre-set words. But I am not Jewish, so I don't understand the sensitivity that various Jews express from time to time.

I suppose Mormons would take offense as well if, for example, the Wiccans used the names of the Mormon dead ancestry as part of Wiccan ritual.

[_Kishkumen]

True, ordinances for the dead are only Mormons going through motions/chanting pre-set words. But I am not Jewish, so I don't understand the sensitivity that various Jews express from time to time.

I suppose Mormons would take offense as well if, for example, the Wiccans used the names of the Mormon dead ancestry as part of Wiccan ritual.

And I would chuckle ruefully at the ridiculousness of that too. Listen, taken in the context of the longstanding admiration of the LDS people for Judaism and the Jewish people, I am just not buying into the idea that somehow Mormon baptisms for the dead, which are performed for every person they can possibly do it for, are a special imposition on the Jewish community and reflect Mormon insensitivity to the Jewish people.

[_sock puppet]

True, ordinances for the dead are only Mormons going through motions/chanting pre-set words. But I am not Jewish, so I don't understand the sensitivity that various Jews express from time to time.

I suppose Mormons would take offense as well if, for example, the Wiccans used the names of the Mormon dead ancestry as part of Wiccan ritual.

And I would chuckle ruefully at the ridiculousness of that too. Listen, taken in the context of the longstanding admiration of the LDS people for Judaism and the Jewish people, I am just not buying into the idea that somehow Mormon baptisms for the dead, which are performed for every person they can possibly do it for, are a special imposition on the Jewish community and reflect Mormon insensitivity to the Jewish people.

The explanations given by the Jews that do complain about Mormon posthumous ordinances do not hold water, I agree. But I wonder why it keeps being repeated by them, particularly in the face of the LDS admiration for Judaism/Jewish people that you note? I do not know. Maybe they're just indulging their own persecution complex when they do so. Maybe they just want the attention that the press gives them when they do so complain.

[_harmony]

And I would chuckle ruefully at the ridiculousness of that too. Listen, taken in the context of the longstanding admiration of the LDS people for Judaism and the Jewish people, I am just not buying into the idea that somehow Mormon baptisms for the dead, which are performed for every person they can possibly do it for, are a special imposition on the Jewish community and reflect Mormon insensitivity to the Jewish people.

What longstanding admiration for Jews?

[_Kishkumen]

The explanations given by the Jews that do complain about Mormon posthumous ordinances do not hold water, I agree. But I wonder why it keeps being repeated by them, particularly in the face of the LDS admiration for Judaism/Jewish people that you note? I do not know. Maybe they're just indulging their own persecution complex when they do so. Maybe they just want the attention that the press gives them when they do so complain.

There is a long European tradition of forced conversions of Jews, as well as Jews pretending to be Christians to avoid persecution, so I think the misunderstanding stems from lingering cultural anxiety about that history. What they don't seem to understand and appreciate is that Mormon proxy baptisms for the deceased are only efficacious upon the consent of the deceased. Now, I could understand the upset if LDS people had specially singled out deceased Jewish people for such treatment, but the fact that Mormons proxy baptize everyone in this way destroys any argument that this is intended to be an erasure of a specific ethic identity.

This comes down, in my mind, to several factors: misunderstanding, motivated anti-Mormons like that Radke lady, and the attention on the LDS Church thanks to the Romney campaign.

[_Kishkumen]

What longstanding admiration for Jews?

I hope you aren't serious.

[Guest]

My position on this is that the Church is enormously hypocritical and presumptuous in the way that it conducts proxy baptisms. If people don't want to be baptized, the Church should respect that. The PR rep claims that they "feel badly" about this, but I'm not buying it. TBMs think they are obeying God's orders; I doubt very much that they give two squats about what these Jews think.

The hypocrisy here is that you get people like Scott Lloyd who claim that they wouldn't care if other religious groups were doing things on their behalf. Well, Scottie Dog--I hate to break it to you, but all that pamphleteering, protesting, and arguing about the LDS Church being a cult... *That* is them doing things on your behalf. These folks are concerned about your soul, so rather than dismissing them as anti-Mormon bigots, you really ought to be thanking them.

[_Chap]

...

The explanations given by the Jews that do complain about Mormon posthumous ordinances do not hold water, I agree. ....

I don't agree at all. One major complaint takes the form of

"Leave our families out of your church. We don't need you to imply that our grandfather - and by extension those of us who live like him today - lived an incomplete life religiously speaking, and that he or we need your help to get right with God. When our families need your help, we'll ask you."

That seems to me completely legitimate.

[_sock puppet]

...

The explanations given by the Jews that do complain about Mormon posthumous ordinances do not hold water, I agree. ....

I don't agree at all. One major complaint takes the form of

"Leave our families out of your church. We don't need you to imply that our grandfather - and by extension those of us who live like him today - lived an incomplete life religiously speaking, and that he or we need your help to get right with God. When our families need your help, we'll ask you."

That seems to me completely legitimate.

But by complaining, aren't they conceding that there might be some efficacy to the procedure about which they are complaining?

[_Drifting]

In the spirit of reconciliation perhaps the Church could introduce a temple ordinance of posthumous circumcision...