The Top Ten and Only Reasons to be a True Believer

[_Franktalk]

...... I am hoping that if Franktalk sees the same idea posted different ways that he might be able to see the crux of the problem and address it. I think so far he has convinced himself that he has addressed it and continues to repeat his same points over and over.

I think that all of us would agree that it would be great to be able to bypass the messy process of examining claims, evaluating evidence, using logic, etc. and connecting to a perfectly reliable truth transmitter. It would make my life so much easier. Also, I want to be a billionaire. Really, really bad.

That request for money may be in jest but it also may be the problem. When the rich man went to Jesus and said that he wanted more Jesus told him to sell all he had and to follow Him. We don't know from scripture exactly what happened but we are led to believe he did not sell his stuff and follow Christ. But God did not request this of Job or of Abraham and other rich people. To some money can be a stumbling block. I am sure that Job or Abraham would have given everything away in order to follow Christ. But this rich man stumbled on money. Some stumble on pride or fame or power. It does not matter. If we place anything in front of God it is a stumbling block. If you desire more than anything to get a personal witness you will get one. But if the world holds you then the Holy Ghost will not come. Because the Holy Ghost is not of the world but of the Spirit. If you wrap yourself with the world then the Holy Ghost can't enter. Have you ever prayed and said to God to take everything away from you that prevents Him from coming to you? If you can't honestly say that then don't expect a message. Scripture says to let go of everything and we get everything. Have you ever wondered what that meant?

If you humble yourself and forgive all those who have ever sinned against you and you love all men then ask for forgiveness and God will forgive. Only then is your house clean and ready for the Holy Ghost. But if you hate some men and you can't forgive then God has said He won't forgive you. If your house is not clean the Holy Ghost will not come. Just ask yourself how many people actually have done what I just said? Now think back and recall all of those who said they have a detailed personal witness. Can you imagine how many of them really are clean and love their fellow man? Now you can guess how many of them actually had a religious experience. I discern many things I don't talk about. It would serve no purpose to judge another. I am sure that if I ever used a gift of God for personal gain it would be gone. Such are the rules. I don't make the rules. If you read scripture you will find many times people are informed of things they can't talk about, or see things they can't reveal. Scripture is the same way. I can only go so far and then I enter into places that I can't talk about. Some because what I think is true may not be and some because what I think I know would confuse rather than help.

[_Drifting]

I have stated how to test a spirit. It is in scripture. I have also stated that we are not to add or subtract from the experience. If this is done then one can rest on the message as truth.

But that's the point. The 'truth' of the message is entirely dependant on the pre-existent beliefs of the person asking the questions.

I followed exactly the process required to find out the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, with the correct intent etc. I was told the book was not true. Did God lie to me?

[_Dad of a Mormon]

I have stated how to test a spirit. It is in scripture.

When you say that it's in scripture, what do you mean? Or you referring to specific passages that describe how to test a spirit? If so, can you provide the references?

Or do you mean that spiritual experiences should be tested by how well they align with what is in scripture? But what if our spiritual experiences tell us that scripture is not true? Or that we should follow another set of scriptures other than the Mormon standard works? And if that is the "test", wouldn't we need some other way of knowing that scriptures are true since we are using them as the basis for our spiritual experience?

[_Themis]

I have already stated that a spiritual experience can come from two sources. One from the light and contains truth. The other source is not reliable and may lie to you. Unless you can discern between the two then one may accept a lie as the truth.

And how do you discern between the two?

bump

[_Alfredo]

edit

[_Franktalk]

When you say that it's in scripture, what do you mean? Or you referring to specific passages that describe how to test a spirit? If so, can you provide the references?

See post Feb 13, at 656pm in this thread. I don't know of any church which teaches this. In my opinion they all should. It is far more important than all the other stuff because with this you can be sure of your path. To me the doctrines are like the law, they provide a path to some knowledge. But what is any of it if you don't know God? Here is something to chew on:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How do we know the will of the Father? We may know the commandments but what do we know about the path that Father has for us? If we treat scripture as the end and worship scripture we have avoided a relationship with God. It is way more important to know God personally than to know scripture. If someone has the intent of using the power of God for personal pride they are on the path of their own choosing. How can that be the will of the Father? Christ followed the will of the Father and we are to follow His example. How many of us have cast out devils? I know some people who have done so. But they love God and not an image.

[_Dad of a Mormon]

When you say that it's in scripture, what do you mean? Or you referring to specific passages that describe how to test a spirit? If so, can you provide the references?

See post Feb 13, at 656pm in this thread. I don't know of any church which teaches this. In my opinion they all should. It is far more important than all the other stuff because with this you can be sure of your path. To me the doctrines are like the law, they provide a path to some knowledge. But what is any of it if you don't know God? Here is something to chew on:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

How do we know the will of the Father? We may know the commandments but what do we know about the path that Father has for us? If we treat scripture as the end and worship scripture we have avoided a relationship with God. It is way more important to know God personally than to know scripture. If someone has the intent of using the power of God for personal pride they are on the path of their own choosing. How can that be the will of the Father? Christ followed the will of the Father and we are to follow His example. How many of us have cast out devils? I know some people who have done so. But they love God and not an image.

The test in 1 John would only be helpful if I knew by some other method that the Bible (or at least, that passage) is true. If the question is how to know whether a religious proposition is true, it doesn't help to have a "test" that already assumes that it is. But of course, all of that has already been pointed out to you.

So in short, that doesn't provide an answer to the problem, but at this point, it is pretty clear that you either don't have an answer, don't understand the problem, or probably both.

[_Franktalk]

The test in 1 John would only be helpful if I knew by some other method that the Bible (or at least, that passage) is true. If the question is how to know whether a religious proposition is true, it doesn't help to have a "test" that already assumes that it is. But of course, all of that has already been pointed out to you.

If what you are asking is the first step then I may help.

It is pointed out in Romans that we have a built in desire to seek God. But that desire can be suppressed.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Now verse 18 and 19 are talking about the ungodly. But in verse 19 we find out that the ungodly were shown the truth but they did not see it. In verse 20 we see what was shown them. What was shown was the whole creation. We are to know it did not make itself. If indeed it did not make itself then something we can not see made it. And the creation is so big and wonderful that the power to make such a thing must be huge. An unseen power that made the universe.

Now in verse 21 we see how the ungodly made their mistake. Having seen the creation they could not see past it to God but instead used their imaginations to fashion an image of a god in the creation.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Verse 23 tells it all. Instead of seeing the glory of God they instead gave the glory to man. Tell me truthfully, how many people trust Darwin instead of God? If you give the power of creation to the thing created you receive a full dose of the world to wallow in.

Now a person need not know scripture. A person need not know a thing about the Bible. A person need not know the name of Jesus or of the Father. None of that is required. All you have to do is open your eyes and look around.

[_Themis]

I have already stated that a spiritual experience can come from two sources. One from the light and contains truth. The other source is not reliable and may lie to you. Unless you can discern between the two then one may accept a lie as the truth.

And how do you discern between the two?

I will assume Frank does not have a good answer. Like I said before, they can't answer this without exposing the problems with their supposed methodologies.

[_Franktalk]

And how do you discern between the two?

I have already answered that question. If you don't like the answer then just make one up.