Horses and Material Culture

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Horses and Material Culture

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

LDS apologists sometimes explain that the reason we don't find any horse bones in the archaeological record of Mesoamerica is that bones dissolve in the acidic soil. (Never mind that the bones of many other humans and animals have survived from the period.)

This fixation on bones overlooks other kinds of horse evidence that are equally absent in Mesoamerica. In the Old World, the domestication of horses was a social revolution that conferred major economic and military advantages to the societies that mastered it. Horses brought by the Spanish had the same effect in North America, where they revolutionized the lifestyle of the Plains Indians in just a few short decades. Wherever domestication occurred, horses left traces not just in the fossil record but also in the record of human art, artifacts, and politics.

This point particularly impressed me during a visit to the Oriental Institute at the University of Illinois, Chicago. While I was there, I took pictures of a number of ancient Mesopotamian horse-related artifacts. There were quite a few others, like cylinder seals, that I didn't get good pictures of. Here are some of the better examples:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The next one's hard to see, but it shows a guy on horseback.

Image

This one shows a horse-drawn chariot:

Image

The next artifact was once a wooden chariot wheel, but the wood has rotted away. It was originally round.

Image

This is a rein ring with a horse figurine on top:

Image

These exhibits raise serious questions about the apologist claim that domesticated horses in ancient America might have left no traces. Ancient Mesoamerican iconography is chock full of depictions of animals. Why no horses? Why are there no figurines, rein rings, chariot wheels, or horse-related statues and reliefs? Even if their bones had dissolved, horses would surely have left other indelible evidence in the cultural record of the societies that tamed them. Since there is no such evidence, I can only conclude that there were no horses.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _Chap »

I am surprised you should bring up this tired old anti-Mormon chestnut that has been dealt with repeatedly by LDS scholars, like DCP in his well-known video appearance.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

lol. That really is the stock response, isn't it? And a pretty effective one, at that. I feel deflated even though I know you're joking.
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _EAllusion »

I believe I have a good video demonstration of the general apologetic response to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9GqlrSzuEw

Beastie has a pretty decent write up of what I'm going to call the Diamond critque here:

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com/horses.html

(Warning: Her web design is an assault on all that is decent in this world)

If you're interested in some message board apologetic response, there is this old ZLMB thread:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/61 ... z2QBbSxLIU

A few of us here could decode who is who in that discussion.
_Bond James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 2690
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence Mr. Smith.

/trope

I'd like to bear my testimony...

/trope overload

Actually I agree with you that there is usually several streams of evidence that can point to an outcome. Apologists love to talk about bones dissolving, but why isn't there ever a horse painted next to Quezacotl or a picture of Quezacotl riding a horse depicted in the Americas pre-Columbia?
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Tator
_Emeritus
Posts: 3088
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 9:15 am

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _Tator »

EAllusion wrote:I believe I have a good video demonstration of the general apologetic response to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9GqlrSzuEw



Thank you, I totally loved that video. So true.
a.k.a. Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
_SteelHead
_Emeritus
Posts: 8261
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 1:40 am

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _SteelHead »

Even if the organic evidences "dissolved" there should still be the associated tack of a horse culture. Metal bits, bridles, buckles, chariot bits and pieces, etc etc etc that are found everywhere the horse has been employed.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Drifting
_Emeritus
Posts: 7306
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:52 am

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _Drifting »

Perhaps God hid it all, along with the swords and stuff.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Equality
_Emeritus
Posts: 3362
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:44 pm

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _Equality »

Drifting wrote:Perhaps God hid it all, along with the swords and stuff.


Right. All the horse stuff is hidden deep inside the cave in the Hill Cumorah:
http://lunarquaker.blogspot.com/2006/07/farms-geographical-mitosis-and.html
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_malkie
_Emeritus
Posts: 2663
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Horses and Material Culture

Post by _malkie »

Equality wrote:
Drifting wrote:Perhaps God hid it all, along with the swords and stuff.


Right. All the horse stuff is hidden deep inside the cave in the Hill Cumorah:
http://lunarquaker.blogspot.com/2006/07/farms-geographical-mitosis-and.html

But which Hill Cumorah? NY, or somewhere in Latin America, or farms-only knows where?
NOMinal member

Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
Post Reply