The Top Ten and Only Reasons to be a True Believer

[_Themis]

And how do you discern between the two?

I have already answered that question. If you don't like the answer then just make one up.

Perhaps you could re-post it, since I don't see any answer.

[_Franktalk]

Perhaps you could re-post it, since I don't see any answer.

No, go back and read all of my posts again. It is all there.

[_Themis]

Perhaps you could re-post it, since I don't see any answer.

No, go back and read all of my posts again. It is all there.

So another words no you can't answer a simple question. I understand why. You have yet to ever address what the mind and body may be capable of on there own and how you can know they are not responsible for your own expereinces. This is always the big problems for those who want to interpret their experiences as coming from some divine being, and why they avoid these kind of questions.

[_Drifting]

I still contend that you can provide no answer which isn't circularly based on the presupposition that the ideas you rely on are not twisted interpretations, and you've yet to meet this challenge.

It is John who tells us how to test a spirit. If someone does not test a spirit then they may find them self communicating with someone besides the Holy Spirit.

Spirits Confessing Christ

Many people have talked about the Holy Ghost and how we determine whether a spirit is of God or is of Satan. I wish to lay out my views on this most critical of subjects. The part of the Bible that directly deals with this subject is 1 John.
1 John 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Apparently John is describing the will of God, verse two is clear in that it says “know ye the Spirit of God” So John is either a liar or he is describing in truth what God has directed him to say. So we are commanded to know the truth. If that is the case then the message should be clear and easy to discern from the words written. We should not have any special training or knowledge or insight to allow us to receive this message. So I will try and explain what I understand from this message. I will try and hold as tight as I can to the literal meaning of the words.
John is addressing this to the faithful, or he calls everyone beloved. But we do get a clue in verse 16.

16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

He is addressing people who believe that God loves them. This would be the faithful and not all of mankind. He is addressing believers in Christ so this would be the early Church. Now what is interesting is that he is teaching them how to discern spirits yet they have already taken that leap of faith to believe in Christ and the love of God. This means that discerning of spirits is not required to be saved. Verse 16 implies that just the belief in God is all that is required to have “God in him.” We also find from verse 4.

4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Now these people may have received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. I believe that in the early Church many received the Holy Ghost this way. But as we all know the Holy Ghost is not the only spirit that can speak to us. John in this Epistle was giving the faithful an advanced lesson in spiritual discernment and the Holy Ghost knowing this Epistle would become part of recorded scripture was in essence giving us all the same message.

God calls Himself a Spirit and tells us that the real power is in the unseen. It is the spiritual that is the greater reality and it is the spiritual that made the flesh and the whole universe. Now God made the flesh and made the world so He knows how weak man will be and how easy it is to tempt him. To help man God gave each of us a moral compass we call our conscious. We of course can use our free will and ignore this if we so desire. God also allows spirit to spirit communication while we are in the flesh. God tells us to seek the truth in Him and He directs His angels to aid us and the Holy Ghost to be our comforter. But while we are in the flesh we need to be able to tell between a spirit that is of God or a spirit that is of the devil. So He has commanded all spirits of evil that they can not confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. The Holy Ghost through John is giving us that message. There is nothing in these verses to indicate that Satan or his workers of evil can in any way get around the will of God.

After John opened with “Beloved” he tells us “believe not every spirit.” This tells us that some spirits lie. John is establishing a view of the spirit world here. First of all he is confirming that spirits will speak to you. He does not describe this communication but we know when it happens. Now he separates the spirits into two groups. Those who you should believe and those who you should not believe. He does not describe any grey area. But we have Satan’s chat in the garden as our guide.

Genesis 3
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
The serpent was a manifestation of Satan or was doing Satan’s work. Eve had clearly understood God in His command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The fruit of the tree would open their eyes and they would now know good from evil. The devil cast doubt in Eve’s eyes so she ate the fruit. He started slow but ended up calling God a liar. Then added a false reward if she were to disobey God. The reward that the devil described to Eve would prevent Eve from receiving any consequences of her actions. Eve chose to believe the devil and not God. So it is with evil spirits.
Just how did Satan do his work. When he first started to talk to Eve it appears that Eve had a fear of God and that fear held her back from eating the fruit. But the lie of Satan promised her a reward for her actions and she would be protected from the wrath or promise of God. When she believed the lie of Satan she lost her fear of God. She no longer felt that she would be held accountable for her actions. So it appears that the fear of God is coupled to doing what is right in the sight of God. If one has lost their fear then they are doing their own works or the works of Satan. An example of this is when people judge other Christians and tell them that they worship the wrong Christ. Then they tell them they are damned. These people are clearly told not to judge yet they do. They have lost the fear of God. This pattern of behavior is everywhere. Scripture tells us directly.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Satan will tempt us with many lies. If we believe him and do his work then the fear of God goes away.
Now the message of John only makes sense if we all receive messages from both good and evil spirits. I think Peter is the classic example. He receives a message from the Father about Jesus being the Christ and a minute later he delivers a message from Satan. Peter obviously at this point could not discern spirits.
Moving along John now says “but try the spirits whether they are of God.” So God has established a test for us to administer to any spirit that speaks to us. What I find interesting is how this can be applied to the spirit of men as well. There is no indication whether the spirit comes to us by itself or in response to something we did. So the testing of the spirit is the same. The message also indicates that more than one spirit can come at a time or that one spirit can show up many times. And of course many different spirits can come over time. Again there is no grey area. The spirit is of God or it is not.
The next few words that John says are critical. He writes “because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” It looks to me that the term prophet is directed at men and their spirits. So this passage applies to more than those small voices that talk to our spirit. We can also test the spirit of a prophet to tell if he is of God or not. Now how do we know if someone is a prophet? We know because what they say about the future comes true. But can a prophet of Satan tell us things about the future and then Satan using his power cause those events to happen? Of course they can. But John tells us to test the spirit of the prophet. If that prophet knows the future and confesses Jesus Christ came in the flesh then the spirit of that prophet is of God. To seal the deal we examine the fruits of that prophet. Did their work produce good fruit?
John next writes “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God.” This is the lead in to the test which we must administer. The test is “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.” Now here is where I have to be quite literal. It is the spirit and not you that confesses. You can not ask the spirit if Jesus Christ came in the flesh and get a “yes” answer. That is not a confession. You must tell the spirit to confess the truth of Christ. If the spirit confesses that Jesus Christ came in the flesh then that is a confession. Only then can you be sure that the spirit is of God. So any spirit of man that does not confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh that man is not of God. That man is of the world.
The message ends by saying that antichrist are in the world. This is important because many feel that the age of demons and fallen angels is over. That somehow that all worked way back in history but we sure don’t have any of that today. But from where I sit I see evil all over the world and it has infested most of man’s countries, cities, churches, and families. So we should all be on our guard to identify someone of the world and not to let that person take away our fear of God.
In 1 John the Holy Ghost lays out a detailed path for us to follow. The environment of the Church was going to start to change and people were going to have to rely on them self to obtain the sure Word of God. The holy Ghost knew that in short order the Apostles would not be there and the power to obtain the Holy Ghost would diminish over time by the laying on of hands. So some information needed to be passed on to those who study scripture so they could get a more sure witness.

The practical view.

In 1 John 4 we learn that there is a way to test spirits so we will know that they are from God and not Satan. We also learn that the flesh is not to be trusted because there is no sure test of the flesh. This conclusion is reached because a test is not given for flesh and in 1 John 5 the witness on the earth is the Holy Ghost, water, and blood. The interesting thing is the witness in heaven includes the Word but it does not appear as a witness on the earth.

So when we merge the two chapters together we get a great picture that will lead us to truth. In 1 John 4 John does warn about being a false teacher or anti-Christ. If we follow the message then we know not to trust the flesh or the Word. The Word does speak of Christ but it comes to us by our senses which can't be trusted. Also scripture is hard to understand and many clever people will try and lead you down a bad path once you give them your ear.

But God knows all of this. So while we are seeking God and reading His Word we find that many interpretations of scripture will come our way. It is clear that the world is not the path to truth. It is the path to spirituality that is the sure path. But here we find evil spirits that wish us harm. So we are given a test. If the spirit confesses the Gospel then it is of God . Jesus is the Son of the Father, Jesus Christ came in the flesh, He died for our sins, He did rise on the third day and sits on the right hand of the Father, He will judge the living and the dead. If the spirit does not confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh then it is not of God. So knowing what spirit to listen to as our witness keeps us on the right path. Together 1 John 4 and 5 tell us not to trust the world, or flesh, or our interpretation of the Word. We must establish a personal relationship with the Holy Ghost and God to obtain the truth. It is that transition from the man of the world to the man of spirit that allows us to progress. The water of Baptism and the Blood of Christ are spiritual events which further witness to our spiritual connection.

If indeed we do not get a witness from the Holy Ghost about a subject then we should be careful. For me much of what is in scripture is not witnessed. It seems I am to find understanding with hard work.

[_Franktalk]

So another words no you can't answer a simple question. I understand why. You have yet to ever address what the mind and body may be capable of on there own and how you can know they are not responsible for your own expereinces. This is always the big problems for those who want to interpret their experiences as coming from some divine being, and why they avoid these kind of questions.

The mind and body are for a purpose. That purpose is to learn good from evil. While here we will encounter others on a similar path. We are to help them and love them as our self. Those who embrace the world while here are lost and we should help them if possible get back on a path to our purpose. Any communication with God while here is a blessing but stops us from living in faith which God desires. So to this end any direct experience with God is at a minimum.

[_subgenius]

...
It's not so difficult. Dispute or respond directly to my argument....

you certainly have gone the long way around the barn to attempt an old argument about moroni's challenge.

for starters
your premise (and listed qualification #2) is flawed.
religious experience does not always require interpretation...more likely, it hardly ever requires interpretation.
consider the notion of "self-evident".

so, to keep with the barn...you took some shots at the side of the barn, and then tried to paint the target afterwards

simple enough?

Bump
for Alfredo to fix his argument or correct his position

In other words...
1) Within Mormonism, there is no reliable method for interpreting and resolving problematic discrepancies between interpretations of spiritual experiences.
2) Mormonism, in nearly every significant aspect, relies upon the claim that there are reliable methods to interpret spiritual experiences which resolve these discrepancies.
3) Until these discrepancies are resolved, judgment concerning whether Mormon interpretation can be trusted over contrary interpretation, at best, cannot be made in favor of Mormonism, if any judgement can be made at all.

not just "in other words" but "on another topic"

1) short answer = the reliable method is authority. However, if you are attempting to state that there is no objectivity from which resolution must surely come from, then you are ignoring the paradigm of this subject.
2) that statement is not true, and it is a regurgitation of what is proposed in statement #1
3) Not sure what you are saying, but it seems like your position is that if Mormonism provides the method for resolution then that method is inappropriate when attempting to resolve Mormonism in and of itself.
Kinda like when the FBI investigated itself regarding what happened at Ruby Ridge and found that they had done nothing incorrectly.
This seems satirical, but it is completely reasonable, plausible, and possible.
Self inspection, self examination and self resolution are not uncommon, unattainable, or unavailable methodologies - nor are they the source of any "contradiction".

Bump
for Alfredo to fix his argument or correct his position

[_Dad of a Mormon]

you certainly have gone the long way around the barn to attempt an old argument about moroni's challenge.

for starters
your premise (and listed qualification #2) is flawed.
religious experience does not always require interpretation...more likely, it hardly ever requires interpretation.
consider the notion of "self-evident".

so, to keep with the barn...you took some shots at the side of the barn, and then tried to paint the target afterwards

simple enough?

Bump
for Alfredo to fix his argument or correct his position

What is he supposed to correct? This is hardly a criticism. What you are proposing is that if you have a spiritual experience, you should accept it at face value and assume that it is real. That is still an interpretation of the experience. Calling it "self-evident" doesn't mean that isn't an interpretation.

Of course, the problem is that taking spiritual experiences at face value becomes more difficult when you become aware that others are also having them that contradict yours. Consider the many people who have taken Moroni's challenge (with pure intent, blah, blah, blah) and either received no answer or "self-evident" confirmation that Mormonism is not true.

[_Themis]

So another words no you can't answer a simple question. I understand why. You have yet to ever address what the mind and body may be capable of on there own and how you can know they are not responsible for your own expereinces. This is always the big problems for those who want to interpret their experiences as coming from some divine being, and why they avoid these kind of questions.

The mind and body are for a purpose. That purpose is to learn good from evil. While here we will encounter others on a similar path. We are to help them and love them as our self. Those who embrace the world while here are lost and we should help them if possible get back on a path to our purpose. Any communication with God while here is a blessing but stops us from living in faith which God desires. So to this end any direct experience with God is at a minimum.

This does not answer any question. It is only simple assertion you believe, but don't know. I see you doing this all the time, posting a lot of text, saying little more then unsubstantiated assertions. You have no idea how to discern simple because you have no idea what the body is capable of producing.

[_Themis]

What is he supposed to correct? This is hardly a criticism. What you are proposing is that if you have a spiritual experience, you should accept it at face value and assume that it is real. That is still an interpretation of the experience. Calling it "self-evident" doesn't mean that isn't an interpretation.

Of course, the problem is that taking spiritual experiences at face value becomes more difficult when you become aware that others are also having them that contradict yours. Consider the many people who have taken Moroni's challenge (with pure intent, blah, blah, blah) and either received no answer or "self-evident" confirmation that Mormonism is not true.

Self evident is a lame excuse to avoid criticisms of the meanings we may attach to the spiritual expereince. It still requires interpretation, and if it is self evident then we should not have so much disagreement.

[_Franktalk]

This does not answer any question. It is only simple assertion you believe, but don't know. I see you doing this all the time, posting a lot of text, saying little more then unsubstantiated assertions. You have no idea how to discern simple because you have no idea what the body is capable of producing.

So what. Don't read my post and don't respond to them. In fact just place me on ignore. If you truly believe I offer nothing of value why do you respond? If you enjoy bashing Christians try to find something more productive. It seems to frustrate you. Maybe you can write a book. Your wit and wisdom should be shared.