In Which Res Ipsa Abandons the Illusion of Control Over What People Post In a Thread f/k/a Thinking About ...

[Analytics]

Mind like water.

The idea is to think of a still pond. When a disturbance hits it, be it a small pebble or a large rock, the reaction of the water is exactly proportional to the energy of the disturbance: there is a splash, some ripples, and then a return to calm.

Why is “mind like water” something David Allen says we should strive for? Because it is necessary in order to be happy and productive, but it isn’t natural. When we are subject to a grievance we are capable of responding way out of proportion—we can misunderstand what was said, be more offended than we rationally should be, and then replay the grievance over and over and over in our minds, amplifying the problem into perpetuity and never getting over it.

[Lem]

Mind like water.

The idea is to think of a still pond. When a disturbance hits it, be it a small pebble or a large rock, the reaction of the water is exactly proportional to the energy of the disturbance: there is a splash, some ripples, and then a return to calm.

Why is “mind like water” something David Allen says we should strive for? Because it is necessary in order to be happy and productive, but it isn’t natural. When we are subject to a grievance we are capable of responding way out of proportion—we can misunderstand what was said, be more offended than we rationally should be, and then replay the grievance over and over and over in our minds, amplifying the problem into perpetuity and never getting over it.

Here's hoping honorentheos can take your advice and let things go. His 25+ posts in 60 hours, ALL focused on how bad the woman is who objected to a sexist remark, were pretty frenetic.

[Res Ipsa]

Mind like water.

The idea is to think of a still pond. When a disturbance hits it, be it a small pebble or a large rock, the reaction of the water is exactly proportional to the energy of the disturbance: there is a splash, some ripples, and then a return to calm.

Why is “mind like water” something David Allen says we should strive for? Because it is necessary in order to be happy and productive, but it isn’t natural. When we are subject to a grievance we are capable of responding way out of proportion—we can misunderstand what was said, be more offended than we rationally should be, and then replay the grievance over and over and over in our minds, amplifying the problem into perpetuity and never getting over it.

I think this is helpful advice. The trick is, it’s only helpful if one gives it to oneself and not to others.

[Lem]

Ibram X. Kendi wrote about this problem in How to be an Anti-Racist. Basically, the obstacle is thinking of racism as something only racists do. If that's how I think about racism, then it's easy for me to think like this: "Racism is something only racists do. Racists are bad people who hate people of a different race. I'm a good person who doesn't hate people of other races. Therefore, I am not a racist."

If that's how I think about racism, then when a black person says to me "hey, what you said is racist," what I hear is "You're a racist." I hear the other person saying that I'm a bad person. I naturally get defensive because I'm a good person. And so the whole conversation becomes an exercise in me defending myself as a good person, rather than the effect of whatever it was that I said.

This is fascinating. It truly never occurred to me that when I point out a sexist comment, the other person thinks I am saying they are a bad person. What I am saying is "please don't use this sexist phrase, because it is hurtful to me as a woman." If they apologize and say sorry, I accept that apology, and if they stop using it, I certainly don't go forward thinking "that person is sexist." I simply assume they took my point, about a phrase that is likely to have been used in the past without realizing the damage. And hopefully, they learned something, and they won't say it again.

So many phrases and comments are habitual that it takes a while to get them out of our vernacular. As a woman, I point out very few of the sexist comments made here, or those made in my professional life, or those made in my social life, or those made by family members, or those I read in current newspapers and stories, etc. etc. etc., but I do appreciate having learned through this experience how incredibly hurt some people may feel when their sexist phrases are pointed out. It certainly explains why women who speak up are so viciously attacked.

Do those saying sexist things feel as much hurt as those receiving the crude sexist slaps in the face feel? Who knows. Maybe that hurt will be a topic somewhere in the future. At the moment, the OP seems to want to focus on offering acceptance and kindness to those making the sexist comments, so I will leave him to his noble task.

[Res Ipsa]

Ibram X. Kendi wrote about this problem in How to be an Anti-Racist. Basically, the obstacle is thinking of racism as something only racists do. If that's how I think about racism, then it's easy for me to think like this: "Racism is something only racists do. Racists are bad people who hate people of a different race. I'm a good person who doesn't hate people of other races. Therefore, I am not a racist."

If that's how I think about racism, then when a black person says to me "hey, what you said is racist," what I hear is "You're a racist." I hear the other person saying that I'm a bad person. I naturally get defensive because I'm a good person. And so the whole conversation becomes an exercise in me defending myself as a good person, rather than the effect of whatever it was that I said.

This is fascinating. It truly never occurred to me that when I point out a sexist comment, the other person thinks I am saying they are a bad person. What I am saying is "please don't use this sexist phrase, because it is hurtful to me as a woman." If they apologize and say sorry, I accept that apology, and if they stop using it, I certainly don't go forward thinking "that person is sexist." I simply assume they took my point, about a phrase that is likely to have been used in the past without realizing the damage. And hopefully, they learned something, and they won't say it again.

So many phrases and comments are habitual that it takes a while to get them out of our vernacular. As a woman, I point out very few of the sexist comments made here, or those made in my professional life, or those made in my social life, or those made by family members, or those I read in current newspapers and stories, etc. etc. etc., but I do appreciate having learned through this experience how incredibly hurt some people may feel when their sexist phrases are pointed out. It certainly explains why women who speak up are so viciously attacked.

Do those saying sexist things feel as much hurt as those receiving the crude sexist slaps in the face feel? Who knows. Maybe that hurt will be a topic somewhere in the future. At the moment, the OP seems to want to focus on offering acceptance and kindness to those making the sexist comments, so I will leave him to his noble task.

Am I hurting you by doing my best to extend acceptance and kindness to everyone participating in the thread?

[Lem]

This is fascinating. It truly never occurred to me that when I point out a sexist comment, the other person thinks I am saying they are a bad person. What I am saying is "please don't use this sexist phrase, because it is hurtful to me as a woman." If they apologize and say sorry, I accept that apology, and if they stop using it, I certainly don't go forward thinking "that person is sexist." I simply assume they took my point, about a phrase that is likely to have been used in the past without realizing the damage. And hopefully, they learned something, and they won't say it again.

So many phrases and comments are habitual that it takes a while to get them out of our vernacular. As a woman, I point out very few of the sexist comments made here, or those made in my professional life, or those made in my social life, or those made by family members, or those I read in current newspapers and stories, etc. etc. etc., but I do appreciate having learned through this experience how incredibly hurt some people may feel when their sexist phrases are pointed out. It certainly explains why women who speak up are so viciously attacked.

Do those saying sexist things feel as much hurt as those receiving the crude sexist slaps in the face feel? Who knows. Maybe that hurt will be a topic somewhere in the future. At the moment, the OP seems to want to focus on offering acceptance and kindness to those making the sexist comments, so I will leave him to his noble task.

Am I hurting you by doing my best to extend acceptance and kindness to everyone participating in the thread?

Absolutely not! Why would you think that? Are you hurt that I mentioned the hurt that those receiving sexist comments may feel? I understand your approach in offering acceptance and kindness, and I am sure your intent is to offer that to those on the receiving end of sexism also. I was just noting that I was completely surprised that people making sexist comments feel a 'hurt' that needs to be attended to when their sexism is pointed out.

[Res Ipsa]

I'm just checking, because it's entirely possible that my efforts were hurting you in a way that I did not perceive. I'm glad I wasn't.

I am hurt by your repeated description of my acts and intent in a way that I think is both negative and unfair.

[Lem]

I'm just checking, because it's entirely possible that my efforts were hurting you in a way that I did not perceive. I'm glad I wasn't.

I am hurt by your repeated description of my acts and intent in a way that I think is both negative and unfair.

Wow, what a surprise. Welcome to my world, dude! Have you read honor’s last 25 posts?

Seriously, though, I am sorry you are hurt because my opinion about this specific reference you just posted is different. I don’t see how you can take that as a “repeated description of my acts and intent that I think is both negative and unfair.” I am not posting any differently than you do, in terms of voicing my opinion. Please see recent threads you have participated on, if you need examples.

Maybe it would help to consider that you and I are both entitled to express our opinions, and simply having a different opinion doesn’t need to be interpreted by you as hurtful, but rather simply, a different opinion.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

So, if you want to promote a debate with long-form discussion, wouldn't you want to approach any issue with a strategy to invite participation as opposed to discouraging it? Do you think belittling Moksha's posting style and sense of humor advanced your goal of a long-form discussion and debate?

Actually, yes. You and others are participating. Moksha had four posts belittling the idea of sexist language and showed no interest in engaging in the topic to learn or debate his statements, as evidenced by his decision to not take you up on a conversation. My decision to to break the bird off was to illustrate that there wasn’t actually a joke happening, that couching sexist language under the guise of ‘joking around’ was just a strategy to get away with being a dick, and that the underlying motivation was narcissism, i.e., them womens are too sensitive and just looking for a fight so it can’t possibly be MY problem. Plenty of people have put me on ignore or choose not to respond to me, and Moksha had those options available to him, and frankly if I popped in to join the conversation on the thread you asked me to not do so, I probably would’ve honored your request.

Back to Ms. Brown’s demand:

In the centuries of feminist movements that have washed up and away, good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards. Don’t listen to me. Listen to each other. Talk to each other. Earn your power for once.

... if we do not demand that men do more than just listen ...

There’s a time for diplomacy. There’s a time for policing. And there’s a time for war. Some tried diplomacy. That failed. Some tried policing. That failed. I tried war. Perhaps that failed, too. However, sometimes nothing works and so people eventually just pick a camp and hunker down. In this case, I don’t expect Moksha to change his stripes or spots or however the saying goes. I’m unlikely to change much, either.

So, we’re left with the observers. Some may hate how I treated Moksha. Some may have thought it was awesome. It’s kind of like Xanax and some of the others that used to post on this board. He’s not going to change. You can choose how to engage him, and Imma do me. Whatever the case may be is Xanax has become a rhetorical device for posters on this board. If Moksha wants to be an active participant on a topic he disagrees with, and avoid becoming a device through which posters reach the broader audience, then he’s going to have to go the route honor has chosen, and defend his point of view with a bit of spine instead of trying to make himself into a victim. That may work on some folks, but it’s a lazy and transparent attempt to shield his opinion and himself against criticism.

So. To summarize. On this particular topic, sexist language, I think Lemmie, Ms. Brown, and Jersey Girl did an effective job stating and defending their positions. The men not so much. I’m compelled to side with the people who persuasively made their arguments. If a dude jumps in and herps the “F” out after they put in that kind of effort, of course I’m going to spaz out. Herping and derping is supremely disrespectful if you didn’t even bother to read the OP, or WORSE if you read it and you came away with, “wOmEn iZ lAnDmInEz!”

- Doc

[Res Ipsa]

I'm just checking, because it's entirely possible that my efforts were hurting you in a way that I did not perceive. I'm glad I wasn't.

I am hurt by your repeated description of my acts and intent in a way that I think is both negative and unfair.

Wow, what a surprise. Welcome to my world, dude! Have you read honor’s last 25 posts?

Sereiously, though, I am sorry you are hurt because my opinion about this specific reference you just posted is different. I don’t see how you can take that as a “repeated description of my acts and intent that I think is both negative and unfair.” I am not posting any differently than you do, in terms of voicing my opinion. Please see recent threads you have participated on, if you need examples.

Maybe it would help to consider that you and I are both entitled to express our opinions, and simply having a different opinion doesn’t need to be interpreted by you as hurtful, but rather simply, a different opinion.

When you express an opinion that differs from mine, it doesn't hurt me. When you tell me you disagree with me, it doesn't hurt me. Do you want me to show you an example of what does?