Advice on the best way to deal with people like this?

[_Bond James Bond]

* cough *

Daheyshit!

* cough *

- VRDRC

It's not typed in bold huge text and there's no mention of fat Mormon women. :D

[_Tobin]

I assume by that statement you assume that the land mass west of Europe and east of Japan is fictional then? or do you believe that people did not really exist there long before Columbus discovered it?

Jersulem: 31°47′N 35°13′E
Zarahelma: ?

Clearly you haven't read the Book of Mormon. It mentions Jerusalem as well. By your logic, it must be historically plausible then.

[_Equality]

You seem to be equating "racism" with "institutionalized slavery" and "genocide." I simply pointed out that Mormon prophets have made racist comments in the past, that Mormon scripture contains racist doctrines, and that Mormonism had racist policies against black people until 1978. It's not just that "some Mormons were racist"; it's that Mormonism has scriptures unique to Mormonism that contain racist doctrines, and that Mormonism, in fact, had deeply racist policies for well over 100 years. In addition, Mormon prophets spoke out in official church gatherings against the "evils" of the civil rights movement. The fact that individual Mormon racists were not as "callous or murderous" as KKK members or slave holders does not negate the facts that show racism is endemic to Mormonism. Additionally, the Southern Baptists have acknowledged that they were wrong in the past to support slavery and opposed civil rights. Mormon leaders have never repudiated the racist comments of their predecessors or admitted that the priesthood ban was wrong. And while they have, without explanation, changed some of the racist language in the Book of Mormon, they have never repudiated the doctrines they taught for decades regarding blacks being inferior in the premortal existence or suffering the curse of Cain.

Well, then you fail to grasp what Mormonism is then. Prophets are NOT God. They only speak for God when God tells you they do; otherwise, they speak as any man and have all of their failings. Now I do agree that modern-day Mormon leaders should rightly acknowledge the racism that did exist and that those doctrines were not of God and were man-made and in error. But that is their problem, not mine. I have never accepted those doctrines were ever from God, nor do I know any member of the church today that would. Therefore, as I stated, Mormonism has nothing to do with racism and I don't care how many silly quotes you dig up stating that it was by so-and-so. It has nothing to do with Mormonism, just the racist bigot that said it.

Thank you for making your position clear, Tobin. To summarize, it is this:

Racist Mormon scriptures have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Racist Mormon prophets have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Racist Mormon doctrines have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Racist Mormon policies have nothing to do with Mormonism.

Got it. It's all clear now.

[_ldsfaqs]

Utah Ohana...... Wish you well on your journey.

You should be aware that this board is primarily an Anti-Mormon board, the kinds of people you describe in your story.
Most of the claims against the Church in this thread are a little truth used to tell great lies, as well as outright lying.

I'm a convert to the Church myself. I then later left and was an enemy of it and religion for a time, just like most here are, but then I got smarter, learned more, and been faithful forever now. I actually know FOR SURE that the people in this thread are ignorant bigots who lie in their every word. Their every word is a perversion of the truth.

I'm not going to correct every false statement they have made in this thread, but if something specific bothers you, I will be happy to show you the actual truth. Case in point, the biggest reason I left the Church was because of the blacks and the priesthood issue. Thus, I know for a fact that most of what people have said in this thread is not the truth, is half truth and perversion, ultimately a lie in conclusion. I'm an expert on this issue. You are correct that the ban only applied to those of African Lineage, not "blacks" as people believe. Plenty of blacks in the Islands, Central/South America, India etc. when lineage was determined WERE given the Priesthood. Further, most of the claims they claim were "doctrines" of the Church against blacks simply were not. The Church never was racist. It always taught against racism and intolerance as a fundamental of it's Theology. A Priesthood policy did not equate to racism. Yes, some "individuals" sometimes said things that might be or were wrong, but such was never the Church itself.

Anyway, if you have any questions on anything, I would be happy to answer you.
Since I've been on all sides of the Church, I know what the actual truth is.

See also http://www.fairlds.org for the actual truth of most issues.
They have many examples showing how people like in this thread twist and pervert the truth in order to try and destroy the Church. Mormons are Mormons because we absolutely believe in and expect the truth and right. We would not be in this religion if it was actually false, and if the claims of our enemy's were actually true. Since they are not true, and since the Church is not false, we have no need to leave it.

Anyway, good luck.... :) I'm likely going to be moving to the Provo area from Nevada in about 4 months myself. Maybe we could meet?

[cacheman]

Thanks Runtu. The ban was on anyone of Sub-Saharan descent holding a priesthood position until 1978, wasn't it?

Correct. But it also meant that no one, male or female, of such descent was allowed to enter Mormon temples.

And Gordon Hinckley lifted it at that time?

No, it was Spencer W. Kimball.

That's good that it was. Anyone who wants to find out how to better fulfill their life, and thinks the LDS Church is the way to slavation and fulfillment shouldn't be denied that opportunity.

Freudian slip? Just kidding.

Seriously, if you think it will work for you, go for it. But I'm with Equality: I'd consider all sides before making that kind of commitment. When you join the LDS church, you are committing to a lifestyle and worldview, both of which are pretty demanding.

[_Bond James Bond]

Clearly you haven't read the Book of Mormon. It mentions Jerusalem as well. By your logic, it must be historically plausible then.

Knobin, I give props to your trollin'.

Zarahelma's latitude and longitude are: [fill in the blank]

[_Runtu]

Thank you for making your position clear, Tobin. To summarize, it is this:

Racist Mormon scriptures have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Racist Mormon prophets have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Racist Mormon doctrines have nothing to do with Mormonism.
Racist Mormon policies have nothing to do with Mormonism.

Got it. It's all clear now.

In short, Tobin is a cafeteria Mormon.

[_Equality]

I'm glad ldsfaqs chimed in. I hope you are still following this thread, ohana. This board holds a unique place on the Internet for Mormons discussions, because it allows almost total freedom of expression from people on all sides with very minimal moderation. ldsfaqs mentions the fairlds site. I, too, encourage you to look at the many issues critics raise and see how knowledgeable church members (apologists) try to answer questions raised. Look at Mormon Think, which provides arguments on both sides. And look at LDS.org and the church's own materials. See what the LDS church itself has to say about the Priesthood ban, polygamy, Joseph Smith's plural wives, the Mountain Meadows massacre, the problems with the Book of Abraham, the multiple First Vision accounts, and so forth. Also, check to see if the apologetic sites and the church's web sites ever provide links to critical sites or discussion boards like this one, where multiple viewpoints are available.

I think that truth is best arrived at after sifting through all the available information and considering the arguments from multiple vantage points. Accordingly, I have no trouble or fear at all in sending you to LDS.org, Mormon. org, the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion board, etc. But you are not likely to find the folks who promote Mormonism reciprocating. Instead, they will warn you against talking to people like me. They will warn you against "anti-Mormon" literature, which is really just code for "anything they find embarrassing or can't provide answers to." If you were thinking of joining the Scientologists or the Jehovah's Witnesses or the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints, I would hope you would do more than just take everything proponents of those religions would throw at you. I would hope you would try to do as much diligence as you could, and make an informed decision before committing.

[Guest]

See also http://www.fairlds.org for the actual truth of most issues.
They have many examples showing how people like in this thread twist and pervert the truth in order to try and destroy the Church. Mormons are Mormons because we absolutely believe in and expect the truth and right. We would not be in this religion if it was actually false, and if the claims of our enemy's were actually true. Since they are not true, and since the Church is not false, we have no need to leave it.

ldsfqs,

Hey my friend, you are taking quit a chance sending him to FAIR. If you check the other boards, you will see that reading FAIR is very high on the list of "last straw" events before members leave the Church.

If Utah ohana is a logical individual, he will soon see through the obfuscation, deflection, and denial at FAIR, and the twisted pseudo-logic that supports it.

I would also recommend that he do some reading at FAIR. Like my earlier recommendation that he visit the MDD board, it will give him a good glimpse into the Mormon mindset.

[_Runtu]

The Bible is plausibly historically accurate since Israel and Jerusalem and Egypt and Rome actually exist.

Plausibly yes, but the only thing we can definitely say is that the book is of ancient origin. Some things in the book are verifiable through other historical sources and through archaeology. The Book of Mormon has none of that going for it.