Advice on the best way to deal with people like this?

[_Molok]

Sure there are. There are lots of abandoned ruined cities in Central America.

Name one that's even close to a match for Zarahemla.

Tobin asks questions, he does not answer them. At least not seriously.

[_Stormy Waters]

There was an apostasy for 1700 years. You want to know how it starts? By people listening to men and not to God. It doesn't matter how fancy the title of a man is - prophet, king, pope, bishop. If something is evil or untrue, you are under no obligation to believe it.

So how do we determine what is from God and what is from man if what the prophets say can be false? If it is by personal revelation, then why have prophets? A middle man isn't needed if we have direct communication. Especially when the middle man occasionally modifies the message. Why have a prophet if we are reduced to playing a game of two truths and a lie every time the prophet speaks?

[Guest]

Bad example. Turns out that archeologists do know where Sodom and Gomorrah were and have a very good handle on the approximate date and means of the destruction of these cities by fire from the sky.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/
http://www.universetoday.com/13560/evidence-of-asteroid-impact-for-sodom-and-gomorrah/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-551010/Decoded-The-clay-tablet-tells-asteroid-destroyed-Sodom-5-000-years-ago.html

Actually, it is you that should be a bit more careful. Sodom and Gomorrah - latitude and longitude please? [fill-in-the-blank]

Gomorrah: 31.3307, 35.3650
Soddom: 31.1264, 35.3540

Thanks for asking.

Plenty of archeological and geophysical evidence, including a recently discovered mosiac map to the neighboring ancient city of Zoar known to be located just south of Soddom.

Remember, Google and the Science Channel are your friends (at least they are mine).

[Guest]

Tobin asks questions, he does not answer them. At least not seriously.

You are right, because I don't take the questions (and the underlying assumptions) seriously. The stated assumption is that because the Bible mentions places that historically existed, it is plausibly historical. The Book of Mormon mentions places that are mostly non-historical (it does place some historical locations), because we don't have any other historical records to locate them. The best we have are statues, inscriptions on buildings, and stela in a dead language that no-one speaks today. We have substantially improved our ability to guess what these inscriptions mean, but there is no way to know how they were properly prounounced. Now, if your standard is that if it mentions historical locations, then it is plausibly true - the Book of Mormon passes already. If your standard is that every location must be historical, then I'd argue both the Book of Mormon and Bible fail.

[_Tobin]

Gomorrah: 31.3307, 35.3650
Soddom: 31.1264, 35.3540
Thanks for asking.
Plenty of archeological and geophysical evidence, including a recently discovered mosiac map to the neighboring ancient city of Zoar known to be located just south of Soddom.
Remember, Google, and the Science Channel are your friends (at least they are mine).

Well, if you are going to be dishonest, is there really any point in discussing it with you? Remember, I have the internet too and at least Quasi states the case honestly. There is no definitely evidence that any location you cited is the real Sodom and Gomorrah. If there is, CFR please.

[_Quasimodo]

You are right, because I don't take the questions (and the underlining assumptions) seriously. The stated assumption is that because the Bible mentions places that historically existed, it is plausibly historical. The Book of Mormon mentions places that are mostly non-historical (it does place some historical locations), because we don't have any other historical records to locate them. The best we have are statues, inscriptions on buildings, and stela in a dead language that no-one speaks today. We have substantially improved our ability to guess what these inscriptions mean, but there is no way to know how they were properly prounounced. Now, if your standard is that if it mentions historical locations, then it is plausibly true - the Book of Mormon passes already. If your standard is that every location must be historical, then I'd argue both the Book of Mormon and Bible fail.

From Wikipedia:

The Mayan languages (alternatively: Maya languages)[1] form a language family spoken in Mesoamerica and northern Central America. Mayan languages are spoken by at least 6 million indigenous Maya, primarily in Guatemala, Mexico, Belize and Honduras. In 1996, Guatemala formally recognized 21 Mayan languages by name,[2] and Mexico recognizes eight more.[3]

From Wikipedia:

The Maya script, also known as Maya glyphs or Maya hieroglyphs, is the writing system of the Maya civilization of Mesoamerica. Presently the only Mesoamerican writing system that has been substantially deciphered, the earliest inscriptions found which are identifiably Maya date to the 3rd century BCE in San Bartolo, Guatemala.[1][2] Writing was in continuous use until shortly after the arrival of the conquistadors in the 16th century CE (and even later in isolated areas such as Tayasal).
Maya writing used logograms complemented by a set of syllabic glyphs, somewhat similar in function to modern Japanese writing. Maya writing was called "hieroglyphics" or hieroglyphs by early European explorers of the 18th and 19th centuries who did not understand it but found its general appearance reminiscent of Egyptian hieroglyphs, to which the Maya writing system is not at all related.
Although most Mayan languages utilize the Latin alphabet, Maya writing is still used and taught in some Maya speaking areas of Mexico where it has received official support and promotion by the Mexican government and is taught in universities and public schools in Mayan speaking areas.

Think about looking it up before posting.

[Guest]

Gomorrah: 31.3307, 35.3650
Soddom: 31.1264, 35.3540
Thanks for asking.
Plenty of archeological and geophysical evidence, including a recently discovered mosiac map to the neighboring ancient city of Zoar known to be located just south of Soddom.
Remember, Google, and the Science Channel are your friends (at least they are mine).

Well, if you are going to be dishonest, is there really any point in discussing it with you? Remember, I have the internet too and at least Quasi states the case honestly. There is no definitely evidence that any location you cited is the real Sodom and Gomorrah. If there is, CFR please.

Just a second.

First you say that there is no evidence and then you ask for a CFR of the evidence.

Which is it?
_________________

ETA:

If you understood the difference between degree / minute / second lat long coordinates and decimal lat long coordinates, you would realize that the two locations I provided are pretty much within the uncertainty of the location that Quasi provided.

[_Tobin]

There was an apostasy for 1700 years. You want to know how it starts? By people listening to men and not to God. It doesn't matter how fancy the title of a man is - prophet, king, pope, bishop. If something is evil or untrue, you are under no obligation to believe it.

So how do we determine what is from God and what is from man if what the prophets say can be false?

If you are unable to make that determination, why join Mormonism in the first place? You are to speak to God and God will tell you if it is true. It is what we teach each and every investigator of the church.

If it is by personal revelation, then why have prophets?

A prophets job is to pronounce the truths we need to hear and call us to repentence (change). Do you think Mormons are the only ones to have prophets? MLK and Gandhi were prophets too and filled this role admirably. They spoke the truth and the people listened and changed.

A middle man isn't needed if we have direct communication. Especially when the middle man occasionally modifies the message. Why have a prophet if we are reduced to playing a game of two truths and a lie every time the prophet speaks?

You don't need any middle man between you and God. In fact, you are encouraged to talk with God yourself in Mormonism. The Joseph Smith story from the beginning highlights that. He went into a grove and prayed and spoke to God. The Book of Mormon teaches this same thing, talk to God and he'll reveal the truth to you. You don't need to ask President Monson if Mormonism is true and if you should join the church. You need to talk with God.

[_Runtu]

Cajamarca, Peru
Latitude and Longitude:7° 10' 0" S / 78° 31' 0" W

How did you settle on Cajamarca?

[_Tobin]

Tobin,
This is my take as well. God has told me *many* things that conflict with the words of our latter-day prophets. It is liberating to know that Mormonism really can be exactly what you want it to be.
Someday, I will present to you my new ideas on the temple garment. I've learned recently that the garment was never intended to be under our clothing. Nor was it intended to be plain, boring white.
I'm sure you and I will get along just fine!

Actually zeezrom, I think they should do away with garments. The whole idea of making and wearing funny looking underwear is demeaning. Give people decals that they can wear under their clothes if they feel the need.