Advice on the best way to deal with people like this?

[_Stormy Waters]

A prophets job is to pronounce the truths we need to hear and call us to repentence (change).

Let's say that when Moses received the ten commandments, that before he gave them to his people that he modified them. Let's say that he added three, and got rid of two others. Should his people have prayed over all of them to make sure they were true? If so, then why deliver the commandments through a prophet at all? How does one pray to discover the commandments that were omitted?
If prophets can teach things that are false, they have little value. In fact they add confusion because many members take what the prophets say as truth.

[_zeezrom]

Actually zeezrom, I think they should do away with garments. The whole idea of making and wearing funny looking underwear is demeaning. Give people decals that they can wear under their clothes if they feel the need.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Tobin. Your solution is to hate and rid us of something disagreeable. Why not build/fix the religion instead of remove the interesting pieces until you have nothing left? Are you aiming at Mormon Unitarian Universalism?

Do away with the chance for unique, religious clothing? For shame!

Love, Tobin. Don't hate.

[_Tobin]

A prophets job is to pronounce the truths we need to hear and call us to repentence (change).

Let's say that when Moses received the ten commandments, that before he gave them to his people that he modified them. Let's say that he added three, and got rid of two others. Do I need to pray to God over all of them to make sure they are true? If so, then why deliver the commandments through a prophet at all? How does one pray to discover the commandments that were omitted? If prophets can teach things that are false, they have little value. In fact they add confusion because many members take what the prophets say as truth.

Look at it this way. Moses, or any prophet, is still a man and not God. Men are flawed, biased, imperfect creatures. How do you know what comes from the man is merely his opinion or truth from God? The only answer is because what the man claims is from God must be given a 2nd witness as to its veracity. If the man speaks the truth, then God should be able to confirm that to us. Otherwise, do not believe it. I view all such statements from men (whether written or spoken) should be filtered this way. Quotes from so-and-so do not impress me. Magic sayings from magic books do not impress me. I'm only impressed by the truth and if it helps me better understand the world, how I should behave towards others, or by giving me better insight into the mind of God.

[_moksha]

Utah Ohana, seems like I remember you from CBS Sports forums. Go Utes.

[_Tobin]

Actually zeezrom, I think they should do away with garments. The whole idea of making and wearing funny looking underwear is demeaning. Give people decals that they can wear under their clothes if they feel the need.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Tobin. Your solution is to hate and rid us of something disagreeable. Why not build/fix the religion instead of remove the interesting pieces until you have nothing left? Are you aiming at Mormon Unitarian Universalism?
Do away with the chance for unique, religious clothing? For shame! Love, Tobin. Don't hate.

We do not distinguish ourselves by the clothes we wear, but how we treat one another. However, if you need garments to remember that, then more power to you. I believe things like that get in the way of the message and prevents us from reaching other people.

There are many things we say and do in the church that I do not find particularly helpful, such as excluding people from the temple. All people should feel welcome there. And if we really believe in a health code, then we should instruct members in proper nutrition and exercise and ensure they are physically fit. It is hypocritical to state it is our intent for people to live the WoW, yet do not correct members for being overweight and unhealthy.

I think we would be much more successful if we focused on being inclusive instead of exclusive.

[_zeezrom]

We do not distinguish ourselves by the clothes we wear, but how we treat one another. However, if you need garments to remember that, then more power to you. I believe things like that get in the way of the message and prevents us from reaching other people.

There are many things we say and do in the church that I do not find particularly helpful, such as excluding people from the temple. All people should feel welcome there. And if we really believe in a health code, then we should instruct members in proper nutrition and exercise and ensure they are physically fit. It is hypocritical to state it is our intent for people to live the WoW, yet do not correct members for being overweight and unhealthy.

I think we would be much more successful if we focused on being inclusive instead of exclusive.

I'm sort of playing around, Tobin. I just find it interesting that you support the Book of Mormon but not the garments. It's not often you run into such a person.

I'm interested in the idea of maintaining a unique and helpful religion by changing things rather than by removing things. Is it possible?

[_Tobin]

We do not distinguish ourselves by the clothes we wear, but how we treat one another. However, if you need garments to remember that, then more power to you. I believe things like that get in the way of the message and prevents us from reaching other people.
There are many things we say and do in the church that I do not find particularly helpful, such as excluding people from the temple. All people should feel welcome there. And if we really believe in a health code, then we should instruct members in proper nutrition and exercise and ensure they are physically fit. It is hypocritical to state it is our intent for people to live the WoW, yet do not correct members for being overweight and unhealthy.
I think we would be much more successful if we focused on being inclusive instead of exclusive.

I'm sort of playing around, Tobin. I just find it interesting that you support the Book of Mormon but not the garments. It's not often you run into such a person.
I'm interested in the idea of maintaining a unique and helpful religion by changing things rather than by removing things. Is it possible?

I hope so. Nothing is really going to change with the current Mormon leadership. They'll eventually have to change or disappear. It doesn't matter to me which happens at the end of the day. I'm not in love with the current Mormon church and feel it needs to change a lot of things and come to terms with some things that are no so true about Mormonism. I'll leave the Book of Mormon to science and archeology. At some point it will either be shown to be correct or the evidence will be so insurmountable that maintaining it has any basis in reality just isn't credible.

[_zeezrom]

I hope so. Nothing is really going to change with the current Mormon leadership. They'll eventually have to change or disappear. It doesn't matter to me which happens at the end of the day. I'm not in love with the current Mormon church and feel it needs to change a lot of things and come to terms with some things that are no so true about Mormonism. I'll leave the Book of Mormon to science and archeology. At some point it will either be shown to be correct or the evidence will be so insurmountable that maintaining it has any basis in reality just isn't credible.

As long as you don't spend tons of effort worrying about the Book of Mormon. If you are going to spend time with some body of inspired works of people, why not spend it with one that is more interesting?

I used to spend so much time thinking about the Book of Mormon and other correlated material. I've come to realize non-Mormons (like the Greeks, 19th century painters, early movie actors, etc) actually provide us with works that are amazingly inspiring. It's like a whole world has opened up to me. It is vast and inviting. It is there for the taking. You just have to start opening books. The chains of correlation are dark and filthy.

[_Tobin]

As long as you don't spend tons of effort worrying about the Book of Mormon. If you are going to spend time with some body of inspired works of people, why not spend it with one that is more interesting?

I used to spend so much time thinking about the Book of Mormon and other correlated material. I've come to realize non-Mormons (like the Greeks, 19th century painters, early movie actors, etc) actually provide us with works that are amazingly inspiring. It's like a whole world has opened up to me. It is vast and inviting. It is there for the taking. You just have to start opening books. The chains of correlation are dark and filthy.

Agreed. The Book of Mormon is a side-show. I argue about it for fun. The evidence for the Book of Mormon is weak at best and the counter arguments and evidence are very strong. There are much more interesting things to fixate upon.

[_Radex]

1. Gladys Knight. Yes, there are a few (very few) African-American members of the church.

While there may be comparatively few minority-Americans in the church, there is certainly a large representation of other countries within the church. Looking at the statistical information website for the church and focusing just on Africa, there are about 332,582 members of record. Out of the whole of 14,161,637 members on record, Africa makes up more than 2% of the entire church! I'd appreciate it, my good sir, if you'd avoid lying.

2. Mormonism has nothing to do with racism. An astonishing claim,

A correct claim.

either based in ignorance (which I doubt) or a desire to obfuscate, deflect, and deny. I suggest you read this page from Mormon Think all the way through and then revise your statement. http://mormonthink.com/blackweb.htm#racistcomments

Yes, read that anti-Mormon website, then return and report Utah O. You'll find the same hogwash that anti-Mormons have been saying for almost two centuries.

Oh, and after you read that, please read what constitutes official positions of the church, located here: Approaching Mormon Doctrine.

3. Southern Baptists. A red herring.

I'll let my friends, who are members of the SBC, know that you believe they are misleading.

That mainstream non-Mormon Christian sects also have racist legacies is completely irrelevant to Mormonism's own unique history and doctrines regarding race. I am not defending Southern Baptists. That other religious sects are ignorant, racist, etc. does not mean that Mormonism is not. That members of other religious sects may act in uncharitable ways while many Mormons act charitably is irrelevant.

It means that all religions can become wrapped up in the social and political beliefs of their times. What matters is now.

4. The Civil Rights movement. Nice that you brought that up. What did Mormon church leaders--"apostles and prophets" have to say about the Civil Rights movement? That it was a Communist conspiracy; that Martin Luther King was a Communist tool; that the Civil Rights Act was unconstitutional; that the Jim Crow segregation laws should be allowed to stand without federal interference. Apostle Ezra Taft Benson was asked to run as George Wallace's running-mate in 1968. Here's a nice graphic from a book to which Benson wrote the Foreword:

Not official church position. Never was.