Advice on the best way to deal with people like this?

[_quaker]

Sure, there are some rather superficial hypocrite types in Utah. There are those types everywhere, as I'm sure you have seen. They flock to wherever and whatever organization is the best place for them to augment their social stature. In Utah that organization seems to be the LDS church. For some of them they become better people and realize their faults. For others they live their lives with a thin veneer of fakeness to conceal their hearts and intents.

But so many are good people who are making a conscious effort to improve their society and to build up others.

When it comes to sincerity of worship and membership in the church I've noticed that the congregations outside Mormon dense regions have an upper hand. Perhaps this is because there are less social benefits and participation in church therefore becomes more reliant on sincerity of belief.

However you find the people I hope it is enjoyable. Living in a place temporarily often gives us a bit of a romanticized view that is more delightful than daily reality might become. I've never lived in Utah, only visited. I have many friends and acquaintances from the area. There is a bit of a bubble mentality among the natives who have not lived outside of Utah, but it is not a bad one. Obviously many people there are sheltered from the 'ghettos' that exists in many large urban areas. It is good in one sense because that state of affairs is not ubiquitous in the state. In another sense people sometimes don't know how to relate to people outside the society they are used to.

Those comments are all rather generic. Take with a grain of salt considering my lack of experience living in Utah.

[_Bond James Bond]

Cajamarca, Peru
Latitude and Longitude:7° 10' 0" S / 78° 31' 0" W

How did you settle on Cajamarca?

The mountain told him so...

[_Equality]

While there may be comparatively few minority-Americans in the church, there is certainly a large representation of other countries within the church. Looking at the statistical information website for the church and focusing just on Africa, there are about 332,582 members of record. Out of the whole of 14,161,637 members on record, Africa makes up more than 2% of the entire church! I'd appreciate it, my good sir, if you'd avoid lying.

First, I said African-Americans, and you do a bait-and-switch with statistics by focusing on Africa. So I wasn't lying.
Second, of the 332,582 members of record in Africa, how many are active?
Third, of the 332,582 members f record in Africa, almost 55,000 are in South Africa, the vast majority of whom are white. So about 1 in 6 African members is in South Africa.
Fourth, 2% membership in the church makes my point that there are very few black people in the church. And I'll make an additional point: there are ZERO, that's right ZERO black apostles. And only one, that's right, ONE, black General Authority (in the First Quorum of the Seventy). I haven't lied, and your post doesn't include any reference to any lie I've told. I don't need to lie. I'm not trying to cover up and dissemble and deceive to try to trick people into a cult. The truths about Mormonism are more than sufficient to convince any rational, informed person to stay as far away from the LDS church as possible

Not official church position. Never was.

Taking a page from bcspace's book, eh? Pray tell, what WAS the LDS Church's official position on the civil rights movement? Perhaps you can point us all to an official statement from the First Presidency praising the Montgomery Bus Boycott or encouraging the members of the church to lobby Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act. Surely that piece of legislation was every bit as much of a "moral" issue as the ERA amendment or Prop 8. I'd very much like to hear what the "official" church position was in the 1960s and how it might have differed in any appreciable manner from the positions that Ezra Taft Benson, as an apostle, laid out in multiple General Conference addresses at the time.

[_Bond James Bond]

The Bible is plausibly historically accurate since Israel and Jerusalem and Egypt and Rome actually exist.

Plausibly yes, but the only thing we can definitely say is that the book is of ancient origin. Some things in the book are verifiable through other historical sources and through archaeology. The Book of Mormon has none of that going for it.

Certainly. While I certainly don't believe the Bible's claims as an atheist I can at least acknowledge that some of the locations and figures existed. As you say the Book of Mormon has none of that. Tobin's only defense is sophistry and obfuscating.

[_Radex]

While there may be comparatively few minority-Americans in the church, there is certainly a large representation of other countries within the church. Looking at the statistical information website for the church and focusing just on Africa, there are about 332,582 members of record. Out of the whole of 14,161,637 members on record, Africa makes up more than 2% of the entire church! I'd appreciate it, my good sir, if you'd avoid lying.

First, I said African-Americans, and you do a bait-and-switch with statistics by focusing on Africa. So I wasn't lying.

I acknowledged that you specifically said African-Americans. By placing very strict conditions on your reasoning, you can get the results you want. But this is a worldwide church, and we mustn't look only at America for correct demographics. Your post was riddled with disingenuousness.

Second, of the 332,582 members of record in Africa, how many are active?
Third, of the 332,582 members f record in Africa, almost 55,000 are in South Africa, the vast majority of whom are white. So about 1 in 6 African members is in South Africa.

You said African-Americans. I was showing you that there is a solid membership in Africa.

By the way, are people from South Africa who emigrate to America African-Americans, or don't they get to be in that elite club?

Fourth, 2% membership in the church makes my point that there are very few black people in the church.

Well, that depends on what you mean by "black." If you only mean peoples of Africa who emigrated to the Americas then yes, their numbers are smaller than all other ethnicities combined. If you are including all non-whites, well then you have a very different picture.

And I'll make an additional point: there are ZERO, that's right ZERO black apostles.

Okay. There are also ZERO, that's right, ZERO apostles who drive 1978 Aston Martins. So what? Is the church now vehicle-ist in your view? There are, to my knowledge, ZERO Canadians, ZERO New Zealanders, ZERO West Virginians. Hell, my boy, you could bring up any category! I guess that means the church isn't true huh? Poppycock.

And only one, that's right, ONE, black General Authority (in the First Quorum of the Seventy).

So?

I haven't lied, and your post doesn't include any reference to any lie I've told. I don't need to lie. I'm not trying to cover up and dissemble and deceive to try to trick people into a cult. The truths about Mormonism are more than sufficient to convince any rational, informed person to stay as far away from the LDS church as possible

Obviously not. Another lie.

Taking a page from bcspace's book, eh? Pray tell, what WAS the LDS Church's official position on the civil rights movement? Perhaps you can point us all to an official statement from the First Presidency praising the Montgomery Bus Boycott or encouraging the members of the church to lobby Congress to pass the Civil Rights Act. Surely that piece of legislation was every bit as much of a "moral" issue as the ERA amendment or Prop 8. I'd very much like to hear what the "official" church position was in the 1960s and how it might have differed in any appreciable manner from the positions that Ezra Taft Benson, as an apostle, laid out in multiple General Conference addresses at the time.

For the answers to your questions, you'd have to search through that which is contained in the scriptures.

[_Brackite]

I'm not a member of the LDS Church-yet. But I will be. I'm moving to Salt Lake City permanently in April, currently in Austin, Texas. I've been to 46 states and a few other countries, and I've been to Salt Lake City with both tens of thousands of dollars, and homeless. I got treated GREAT both times. Friendly, substantive, with courtesy. I was AMAZED at how much different the ways of treating people are there, compared to the vast majority of the country. I found the negative stereotypes that people have on LDS, that aren't familiar with LDS, to be completely unfounded and false. I've travelled extensively for 20 years, and have decided to go back to college to pursue my dream of becoming a high school football coach, for which a BA is required. Utah is the place. Not just for that, but also because of the family values. It was easy for me to see there, how much that's stressed in the LDS culture, and that's a redeeming quality I've looked for in a place to raise a family/live (when it came for that), that I haven't found anywhere else. I'm a San Francisco native, and bi-racial. I didn't get stereotyped AT ALL, or looked at funny, or had derogatory comments made to me when I was in Salt Lake City, under EITHER socioeconomic circumstance. Anyhow, now is the time to make the move there to kick all this off. Well, here in Austin, obviously LDS don't make up the majority. Christians (of several different denominations) do. I have a Book of Mormon, which I read daily. I practice treating others daily the same way LDS did for me in Salt Lake City. Yet I've had people talk down on LDSaints, talk garbage about Salt Lake City, tell me I'm an idiot for being "suckered in." Yet when I ask what they personally know about the LDS faith, or from having spent time in Utah around LDS members, they admit they don't know much, and haven't. So they invariably ask me why I'm moving there, and why I'm so interested in the LDS faith, and wanting to live in Utah, I explain. I tell them that, unlike the "Christians" here, NOT 1 SINGLE TIME did I have someone shout at me with a bullhorn on a street curb that I'm going to hell, having incorrectly stereotyped me as a drug addict, prison parolee, etc, just because I'm not dressed like them-AND THEN JUSTIFY IT AS CORRECT! I have here. I had TOTAL strangers that I asked for directions welcome me to Salt Lake City when I visited, offer to drop what they're doing, show me around, go OUT OF THEIR WAY to be courteous to me, even though I'm a different race, from a different state, etc. I've never had that happen here. I didn't get assualted with f bombs because I'm from out of state or dressed differently. I have here-and then have these actions justified! In short-I got TREATED well. I could sense the people had a peace, an inner sharpness, that also showed on the outside, that they walked with everywhere they went! I told several people that those qualities are what I seek-and that if indeed it's the LDS faith that leads them to have that peace and treat others that way, then that's the way for me. I was told that "They're just trying to good deed their way into Heaven, and you can't do that." I pointed out to them, "Oh, so, assualting people, being racist, being arrogant, uncourteous, not having respect for others, being high and drunk, degrading everyone else not like you is living the way God's outlined for us?" They didn't have an answer for that, they just kept deriding Utah and the LDS Church. I told them point blank that, "I don't know if people in Utah, and LDS members treated me the way they did because they were trying to convert me, as I didn't have one single person try to preach to me. But after experiencing what I have here, I can sure as heck tell you that if that indeed WAS what they were doing (and I don't know that), then they've succeeded." I'd like to know from anyone's experience how they've dealt with people like these, naysayers, in the past, and some advice on how to keep pushing forward, and if you've ever had experiences like this before? I can't wait to get there, and look forward to doing all that is right in The Valley! Thank you for any advice, and experiences you can share.

Hi Utah ohana,

I am glad to hear that you are moving to Utah. Utah has a better climate than Texas. Texas gets too hot band humid in the summer, while the weather is great in the summer in Utah. Utah is a Conservative State and is in much better financial state than California is with its liberal policies there.

I am glad to hear that you are reading the Book of Mormon daily. I do like a lot of the teachings that are within the text of Book of Mormon. However, a lot of the doctrines of the LDS Church are not mentioned within the Book of Mormon. For example, there is Not anywhere within the text of Book of Mormon that states that a man must get married within a Temple to a woman to be able to receive a fullness of salvation. There is Not anywhere within the text of the Book of Mormon where we read about men and women getting married within a Temple there. However, LDS Doctrine states that a man must get married within a Temple to a woman to be able to receive a fullness of salvation.
Here is what the late 13th President of the LDS Church, Ezra Taft Benson Stated to the Single men:

Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation.

(HyperLink:)


There is Not anywhere within the text of the Book of Mormon that comes close to state something like that.
Here is a Link to a Web Site Page that lists a lot of other doctrines from the LDS Church that are Not found within the text of the Book of Mormon:

Test Your Knowledge of the Book of Mormon:
http://www.mrm.org/knowledge-test

[_ldsfaqs]

See also http://www.fairlds.org for the actual truth of most issues.
They have many examples showing how people like in this thread twist and pervert the truth in order to try and destroy the Church. Mormons are Mormons because we absolutely believe in and expect the truth and right. We would not be in this religion if it was actually false, and if the claims of our enemy's were actually true. Since they are not true, and since the Church is not false, we have no need to leave it.

ldsfqs,

Hey my friend, you are taking quit a chance sending him to FAIR. If you check the other boards, you will see that reading FAIR is very high on the list of "last straw" events before members leave the Church.

If Utah ohana is a logical individual, he will soon see through the obfuscation, deflection, and denial at FAIR, and the twisted pseudo-logic that supports it.

I would also recommend that he do some reading at FAIR. Like my earlier recommendation that he visit the MDD board, it will give him a good glimpse into the Mormon mindset.

Nope.... No chance at all. People who are already leaving the Church simply do the classic anti-mormon thing and that's mocking the Intellectuals and scholarship in the Church.

I did the same when I became anti-mormon. People on whatever side believe what they want. It doesn't matter whether it's right or not. What people think is right is right. But, the actual truth is, is FAIR does debunk anti-mormonism. The twisted anti-mind is able to believe otherwise, but it's simply the actual truth. When I put away my judgments of the Church and religion, I was THEN able to see the actual truth. Anti-mormonism does nothing but twist the truth. LDS scholarship on the other hand tells the whole and actual truth, debunking the lies, omissions and false conclusions of the anti's.

It's really simple..... They take an anti claim and debunk it with the full and actual truth.
Only those who's minds are twisted already think that FAIR can harm a testimony.

[_Equality]

Another lie.

You keep using that word. I think perhaps you don't know the difference between a lie and an opinion.

For the answers to your questions, you'd have to search through that which is contained in the scriptures.

In other words, you can't find anything from the church that supports your assertion that the church's official position on the civil rights movement differed from its apostle Ezra Taft Benson's position. By the way, are you meaning to imply that Benson's position on civil rights contradicted Mormon scripture? Or is Mormon scripture in harmony with Benson's position on civil rights?

[_Gadianton]

Utah O,

Let me get this straight: You've found the only true church on the face of the whole earth whereby a man can be saved, you're about to join this church and move into its headquarters to begin the life of a Saint, and your opening post on this board is to ask advice on how to deal with people in other states who rub you the wrong way?

Who cares?

You're about to receive the one true baptism by the only valid priesthood authority in the world. And you're what, trying to figure out what you're going to tell some guy walking the streets of Austin with a bullhorn when you go back there to visit someday?

[_Radex]

You keep using that word. I think perhaps you don't know the difference between a lie and an opinion.

Purposeful obfuscation may have been a better word.

In other words, you can't find anything from the church that supports your assertion that the church's official position on the civil rights movement differed from its apostle Ezra Taft Benson's position. By the way, are you meaning to imply that Benson's position on civil rights contradicted Mormon scripture? Or is Mormon scripture in harmony with Benson's position on civil rights?

I don't need to, young man, I've got this.