Horses and Material Culture

[_Drifting]

I found an old tin can in my garden last year.
Now I know that doesn't sound very impressive, but it's significantly more than any Book of Mormon archeologist has ever found...

[_ldsfaqs]

LDS apologists sometimes explain that the reason we don't find any horse bones in the archaeological record of Mesoamerica is that bones dissolve in the acidic soil. (Never mind that the bones of many other humans and animals have survived from the period.)

This fixation on bones overlooks other kinds of horse evidence that are equally absent in Mesoamerica. In the Old World, the domestication of horses was a social revolution that conferred major economic and military advantages to the societies that mastered it. Horses brought by the Spanish had the same effect in North America, where they revolutionized the lifestyle of the Plains Indians in just a few short decades. Wherever domestication occurred, horses left traces not just in the fossil record but also in the record of human art, artifacts, and politics.

This point particularly impressed me during a visit to the Oriental Institute at the University of Illinois, Chicago. While I was there, I took pictures of a number of ancient Mesopotamian horse-related artifacts. There were quite a few others, like cylinder seals, that I didn't get good pictures of. Here are some of the better examples:

images.....

These exhibits raise serious questions about the apologist claim that domesticated horses in ancient America might have left no traces. Ancient Mesoamerican iconography is chock full of depictions of animals. Why no horses? Why are there no figurines, rein rings, chariot wheels, or horse-related statues and reliefs? Even if their bones had dissolved, horses would surely have left other indelible evidence in the cultural record of the societies that tamed them. Since there is no such evidence, I can only conclude that there were no horses.

You overstate your case......

Mormons don't say there is "none" because of the environment, we only say there is "little" because of it. At least during the specific SHORT by the way period.

by the way, you need to update yourself. Horses have been found in the right time period.
Further, all the "artifacts" you claims should exist have ALSO been found.

See here to start: http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html

[_Runtu]

Even if the organic evidences "dissolved" there should still be the associated tack of a horse culture. Metal bits, bridles, buckles, chariot bits and pieces, etc etc etc that are found everywhere the horse has been employed.

Clearly, the Nephites and Lamanites were exceptionally good about cleaning up after themselves.

[_CaliforniaKid]

by the way, you need to update yourself. Horses have been found in the right time period.
Further, all the "artifacts" you claims should exist have ALSO been found.

They haven't. Read beastie's page on horses and you'll see that the claimed finds have all been misinterpreted by apologists or frauded by pranksters.

[_Buffalo]

LDS apologists sometimes explain that the reason we don't find any horse bones in the archaeological record of Mesoamerica is that bones dissolve in the acidic soil. (Never mind that the bones of many other humans and animals have survived from the period.)

This fixation on bones overlooks other kinds of horse evidence that are equally absent in Mesoamerica. In the Old World, the domestication of horses was a social revolution that conferred major economic and military advantages to the societies that mastered it. Horses brought by the Spanish had the same effect in North America, where they revolutionized the lifestyle of the Plains Indians in just a few short decades. Wherever domestication occurred, horses left traces not just in the fossil record but also in the record of human art, artifacts, and politics.

This point particularly impressed me during a visit to the Oriental Institute at the University of Illinois, Chicago. While I was there, I took pictures of a number of ancient Mesopotamian horse-related artifacts. There were quite a few others, like cylinder seals, that I didn't get good pictures of. Here are some of the better examples:

images.....

These exhibits raise serious questions about the apologist claim that domesticated horses in ancient America might have left no traces. Ancient Mesoamerican iconography is chock full of depictions of animals. Why no horses? Why are there no figurines, rein rings, chariot wheels, or horse-related statues and reliefs? Even if their bones had dissolved, horses would surely have left other indelible evidence in the cultural record of the societies that tamed them. Since there is no such evidence, I can only conclude that there were no horses.

You overstate your case......

Mormons don't say there is "none" because of the environment, we only say there is "little" because of it. At least during the specific SHORT by the way period.

by the way, you need to update yourself. Horses have been found in the right time period.
Further, all the "artifacts" you claims should exist have ALSO been found.

See here to start: http://www.the-book-of-mormon.com/photo-proofs.html

Debunked, debunked, debunked. Got anything else?

[_Runtu]

They haven't. Read beastie's page on horses and you'll see that the claimed finds have all been misinterpreted by apologists or frauded by pranksters.

I'm shocked.

[_ldsfaqs]

by the way, you need to update yourself. Horses have been found in the right time period.
Further, all the "artifacts" you claims should exist have ALSO been found.

They haven't. Read beastie's page on horses and you'll see that the claimed finds have all been misinterpreted by apologists or frauded by pranksters.

Simply not true..... I'm not saying there hasn't been "some" false positives, it happens in scholarship. But you again overstate your case. It is not true that all believed horse related finds are false. Some in fact are legit and are true. Clearly debunking the anti-mormon claim. All we need are a "couple" of evidences that are legit, and you are trashed, and we have them.

Did you even bother to look at the link? It shows several pictures of "horse" related artifacts, things that YOU CLAIM "don't exist" if the Book of Mormon claims were true.

[_Shulem]

Everything about Mormonism requires magical leaps of faith in the face of common sense:

1. Never mind overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
2. Nevermind the total lack of evidence.
3. Nevermind.

So much for horses in the Book of Mormon!

We see the same principles of bad evidence applied to the Facsimile No. 3 inspite of the solemn Mormon declaration that certain things exist in the evidence.

1. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.
2. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.
3. Shulem, one of the king's principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.

So much for Joseph Smith's revelations! There were no horses and there are no such names. Mormonism has been proven a fraud.

Paul O

[_Themis]

Simply not true..... I'm not saying there hasn't been "some" false positives, it happens in scholarship. But you again overstate your case. It is not true that all believed horse related finds are false. Some in fact are legit and are true. Clearly debunking the anti-mormon claim. All we need are a "couple" of evidences that are legit, and you are trashed, and we have them.

Did you even bother to look at the link? It shows several pictures of "horse" related artifacts, things that YOU CLAIM "don't exist" if the Book of Mormon claims were true.

Lets start by giving us what you think is the best one for now and we can go from there. If what you say is true, then this should not be a problem.

[_Shulem]

Lets start by giving us what you think is the best one for now and we can go from there. If what you say is true, then this should not be a problem.

I judge you to be a reasonable and open minded soul, Themis. The very fact that all of us have dug so deep into Mormonism in the first place proves we are all open minded to some degree.

Maybe you can get that nitwit (Leeuniverse) to find the names written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3. I've pressed for that information for years. It must be locked up somewhere in the First Presidency vault. Is there not a Mormon on earth that can produce the evidence from the evidence?

Paul O