The Top Ten and Only Reasons to be a True Believer

[_Franktalk]

You still do not get it. We are to live in faith not proof. To that end we are NOT given proof of everything. We may be guided a little here and there by the Holy Ghost but most of that is not a clear voice anyone could hear as in a conversation. But we can receive a message to our soul and we then will know the truth of a matter if we listen with our heart. A very big IF. But most of our life we will be on our own as the plan dictates. How are we to learn if we are a mindless slave to the Holy Ghost?

I have tried to give you a picture of the spiritual world and of how scripture can be used in our life. You seem to want it all another way. But it is what it is. It is your lack of acceptance that holds you back. Your desire to model how it all works means nothing. You have used the creation to define everything and will judge everything using the creation. All those who do so are fools. They use their own brain to fashion a world with their own desires. Let go of your own desires and accept that there could be a reality much better than anything you could make in your head.

If you do not accept that we are here to learn good and evil then there is nothing I can do for you. Everything I say is based on that reality. The limited communication from God is just used to balance evil so we can live in an environment to learn both. This is why good has never taken over the earth and why evil has never taken over the earth. When the balance was messed with by fallen angels God flooded the earth and reset the earth with Noah. Have you ever read the book of Enoch? Read it with an open mind.

I have answered all of your questions with a view of scripture and the spiritual world. You don't like my answers. So be it.

[_Themis]

You still do not get it. We are to live in faith not proof.

You again are just asserting something without any reasons why it should be believed. You don't even seem to understand the circular nature of it and why that it is a problem.

We may be guided a little here and there by the Holy Ghost but most of that is not a clear voice anyone could hear as in a conversation.

Then how can you be sure it is even from the HG. You keep avoiding this question on how you think you can discern it.

But we can receive a message to our soul and we then will know the truth of a matter if we listen with our heart.

Listening to our hearts is important and valuable, but not if it goes against more reliable methods like our physical senses. This is the path to wisdom. Many follow their hearts and believe and do stupid things because their heart told them to. It is a tendency for people to believe their hearts even against what is obvious. This is the path to foolishness that you are on my friend, but I doubt anything we say will alter it at this point.

When the balance was messed with by fallen angels God flooded the earth and reset the earth with Noah. Have you ever read the book of Enoch? Read it with an open mind.

I wish you would have a more open mind. I am open to being wrong here, but I suspect most Christians today accept that there was no Global flood. Those who don't are the real fools who believe what their heart and mind want to, even though the evidence is obvious before them. I used to believe in a global flood as a child. I think my parents still do, but I understand why they do, just as why you probably do. I doubt you will be open enough to see it anytime soon.

[_Alfredo]

If you do not accept that we are here to learn good and evil then there is nothing I can do for you. Everything I say is based on that reality.

WHAT?!??!

Everything you say is a contingent assertion based upon the Mormon paradigm??!? A religious concept concerning how all of reality should be modeled?!??

Who would have thought? How could I or anyone else possibly see this coming?!

I'm stunned.



This whole time... really?

[_Franktalk]

Listening to our hearts is important and valuable, but not if it goes against more reliable methods like our physical senses. This is the path to wisdom. Many follow their hearts and believe and do stupid things because their heart told them to. It is a tendency for people to believe their hearts even against what is obvious. This is the path to foolishness that you are on my friend, but I doubt anything we say will alter it at this point.

What you say is perfectly reasonable it just happens to be against scripture. If that is your world then fine but don't assume your view is correct. That assumption may get you in trouble.

Many people departed from the Lord in times past. The Lord in His mercy brought tribulation to those people. In their pain and suffering they turned to God. Some people who will not be turned are given over to Satan. Even that is an act of mercy. Because if someone does not receive then little is expected. I am not judging you I am just retelling the message from scripture. I have no idea who you are. Now what I just said seems crazy to some people. But it all makes perfect sense if you consider two things. One is that our body is not us, we are a spirit. The pain and suffering seems like a reality but it is just part of this temporary stop for us. It will seem as a dream once we depart from this life. The other is everything that happens is in the plan for us to learn good from evil. If you embrace these two ideas then everything else falls into place.

[Guest]

Everything you say is a contingent assertion based upon the Mormon paradigm??!? A religious concept concerning how all of reality should be modeled?!??

It is not a Mormon paradigm.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit they did not know good and evil. They were innocent in everything they did since sin requires knowledge of sin. Once they knew there was good and evil then they could sin. Their immortal state was changed to mortal and death would end that state and bring them back. While in the state of knowledge they learned to discern good and embrace it. But some embraced evil. This choice is what we all make in our life. The world wants you to embrace sin and evil, the light of Christ and love drives us towards good. Is this not obvious?

Or do you think that all good and all evil is an accident of nature. Or going one step further do you think that everything has come from an accident of evolution and there is no such thing as good or evil. Do you think that all things have no worth. They are just accidents and have no meaning. Do you think that man has made up the worth of good and of love, and made up the worthlessness of evil. Do you think there is a purpose for us being here?

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

The idea we live in this cesspool to learn and be tested goes way back. This is not new.

[_Alfredo]

Everything you say is a contingent assertion based upon the Mormon paradigm??!? A religious concept concerning how all of reality should be modeled?!??

It is not a Mormon paradigm.

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit they did not know good and evil. They were innocent in everything they did since sin requires knowledge of sin. Once they knew there was good and evil then they could sin. Their immortal state was changed to mortal and death would end that state and bring them back. While in the state of knowledge they learned to discern good and embrace it. But some embraced evil. This choice is what we all make in our life. The world wants you to embrace sin and evil, the light of Christ and love drives us towards good. Is this not obvious?

Or do you think that all good and all evil is an accident of nature. Or going one step further do you think that everything has come from an accident of evolution and there is not such thing as good or evil. Do you think that all things have no worth. They are just accidents and have no meaning. Do you think that man has made up the worth of good and of love, and made up the worthlessness of evil. Do you think there is a purpose for us being here?

Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

The idea we live in this cesspool to learn and be tested goes way back. This is not new.

Franktalk, you insist that we can't get the concept itself right, when that's never been the point of the argument.

What makes you think I care about the difference between one religious concept or the next if I don't see the foundation for any religious concept to begin with is anything but a self-serving appeal to another religious concept...

I was born into a culture which has shaped my mind more than I can tell... so no, it's not at all obvious that your particular cultural-religious paradigm is the correct out of thousands.

Again:

I'm sorry. If you believe lots of black and white things, there are many black and white things we can say about you.

You're arguing against plain and simple functional reason at this point and you refuse to distinguish yourself, at all, from the crowd of intense believers who completely disagree. You refuse to also acknowledge that this brings the foundation for the religious concepts your rely on into question as you present them.

Roll those dice harder, Brother Frank.

[_Franktalk]

You're arguing against plain and simple functional reason at this point and you refuse to distinguish yourself, at all, from the crowd of intense believers who completely disagree. You refuse to also acknowledge that this brings the foundation for the religious concepts your rely on into question as you present them.

You don't agree with anyone who embraces scripture so using a subset of them to support your argument means nothing. If the subset of people you refer to do not embrace the unseen then they are not believers at all. It is that simple.

"Intense believers" Have one of these people join in on the conversation. I would love to chat with them. We will see what they believe.

[_Alfredo]

You don't agree with anyone who embraces scripture so using a subset of them to support your argument means nothing.

You are absolutely wrong and you will never realize how wrong you are until you acknowledge that I'm referring to a subset in order to demonstrate that others use the same religious concepts to justify different interpretive conclusions about religious experience.

I never suggested that this observation itself refutes either particular experience or concept, you imagined I did and interpreted it as so.

That others use the same religious concepts to justify different beliefs only demonstrates that something about what either believer accepts about their religious concept is more incomplete than they think.

The question is and always has been whether you can distinguish your religious concepts in way which others can't suppose about their own version of the same concepts, and use your assumption just as effectively to defend their own contrary interpretation.

You'll never meet the challenge because you can't justify your religious concepts without providing others similar excuses to believe things you don't accept. The number one excuse being that you can simply trust you haven't twisted what God has told you.

If the subset of people you refer to do not embrace the unseen then they are not believers at all. It is that simple.

"Intense believers" Have one of these people join in on the conversation. I would love to chat with them. We will see what they believe.

Sorry. I don't understand why you ignored the rest of my post.

Franktalk, you insist that we can't get the
concept itself right, when that's never been
the point of the argument.

What makes you think I care about the
difference between one religious concept or
the next if I don't see that the foundation for any
religious concept to begin with is anything
but a self-serving appeal to another
religious concept...

[_Drifting]

Frank.

I am a born in the Church Mormon.
I didn't read the Book of Mormon fully and with the intention of establishing its truthfulness until later in life. When I did I complied fully with the conditions set out in Moroni. I read it cover to cover over the period of two weeks. Praying that God would confirm its truthfulness to me each day. I only got what I suppose could be considered as a stupor of thought.
In the days and weeks following this I continued to pray for a witness to its truthfulness. Still nothing.
I was preparing to teach a lesson about the Book of Mormon in a Sunday class when I searched for some additional information on LDS.org. I came across the piece that articulated Joseph using a rock in a hat. This shocked me, that was different to what I had been taught my whole life. I pondered that. I prayed about that. I knew in my heart I'd been lied to. I prayed if the Book of Mormon was not true. I got exactly the feeling Mormonism describes as a burning in the bosom. God was telling me the Book of Mormon was not true.

Frank, do you think God lied to me or perhaps the process described in Moroni is flawed? Or do you think it was my fault I got the 'wrong' answer?

[_Franktalk]

You are absolutely wrong and you will never realize how wrong you are until you acknowledge that I'm referring to a subset in order to demonstrate that others use the same religious concepts to justify different interpretive conclusions about religious experience.

Many people deny the Holocaust does that mean that the Holocaust did not happen? If you start looking at an issue or question you will find opinions vary on any question or issue. Facts are not allowed to get in the way of some agendas. So the existence of people who don't feel the way I do means nothing. In fact the larger the group of people who disagree the better. The way is narrow and few will find it. I suspect that this means few will find the correct way. If you attempt to win an argument by a show of hands it may serve to make you secure in your opinion but it does little to sway me.

Since man does not agree on almost everything does that mean that everything is false or untrue? Just where do you draw a line? If 30% believe something does that make it true? How about 50% or 60% or even 70%? Is it possible that a majority of people could be wrong? If you polled Nazi Germany in 1938 about Hitler would you get the same results today? Does this mean that truth changes with time? You see the world one way and I see it another. You are trying to use the world to help win over your position. I have cast out the world so it means nothing.

You see the various beliefs in religion as proof that the methods of spiritual experience are flawed. I believe it just shows that man is flawed.