ldsfaqs wrote:Simply not true..... I'm not saying there hasn't been "some" false positives, it happens in scholarship. But you again overstate your case. It is not true that all believed horse related finds are false. Some in fact are legit and are true. Clearly debunking the anti-mormon claim. All we need are a "couple" of evidences that are legit, and you are trashed, and we have them.
Did you even bother to look at the link? It shows several pictures of "horse" related artifacts, things that YOU CLAIM "don't exist" if the Book of Mormon claims were true.
They are all false positives. Not a single horse claim has any merit. If you can find a single, reputable, non-apologist scholar who thinks these are solid evidence of horses, I'll go to church on Sunday.
Shulem wrote:I judge you to be a reasonable and open minded soul, Themis. The very fact that all of us have dug so deep into Mormonism in the first place proves we are all open minded to some degree.
That's an excellent point, Paul. We were open-minded enough to reconsider our most deeply held beliefs. That ought to count for something.
Runtu wrote:That's an excellent point, Paul. We were open-minded enough to reconsider our most deeply held beliefs. That ought to count for something.
Being a devout Mormon requires having an open mind to gain spiritual testimony of the claims given by Joseph Smith. Leaving the church requires having an open mind too. But we see that the truth found in the evidence proves the latter to be the best course of action.
If you can find the name Shulem in the writing of Facsimile No. 3, I'll go back to church with you.
I said something to this before about horses in The Book of Mormon times. What was it about the nature of the Book of Mormon lands that caused them to ignore horses for the most part? This is the best question to ask about them.
Ether 9: 31, 33 31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla. • • • 33 And it came to pass that the Lord did cause the serpents that they should pursue them no more, but that they should hedge up the way that the people could not pass, that whoso should attempt to pass might fall by the poisonous serpents.
The Book of Mormon took place on two major islands connected by a narrow neck of land. What horses there were in the north land in the days of the Jaredites fled before the poisonous serpents. None of the Jaredite final battles speak of horses or chariots. The land (island) southward was a game preserve. This is where however many horses were. Even though there were several generations when the Jaredites could have brought horses back North there is no evidence that they did as per strictly infantry armies fought to the end.
Nephites say they found horses in the land southward which was sill the game preserve that the Jaredites kept. Only the Lamanites had horses in the Southern most reaches where the Lehi company originally landed in the promised land.
All the Nephite wars were infantry wars and never is cavalry or chariots mentioned as utilized in their many wars. From this internal evidence the likelihood that horses abounded in the southern land is slim. If there was no chivalry connected with horsemanship there would be no real purpose in cultural portrayal of horses. And the horrific destruction in the Book of Mormon would have stampeded all cattle and horses who may well have died off from hysteria if not killed outright in the calamity. After the three hundred years of peace and the culminating wars horses are not mentioned.
For whatever reason horses were not bred in the Book of Mormon for any reason and only slightly mentioned being seen in the Promised Land and later owned by the kings of the Lamanites. We need to look at the Ancient agriculture of South America Andes regions as to why draft horses were not desirous and plowing with them is not mentioned. Are the soils and climate such that the people did not plow to grow crops? What do they do today?
Okay: the words till and plow relating to tool are mentioned among the Jaredites.
Ether 10: 25 25 And they did make all manner of tools to till the earth, both to plow and to sow, to reap and to hoe, and also to thrash.
I doubt a horse is used in terrace agriculture. It was reported that the Inca had more land under cultivation (without horses) than is under cultivation today. How?
Themis wrote:Lets start by giving us what you think is the best one for now and we can go from there. If what you say is true, then this should not be a problem.
I judge you to be a reasonable and open minded soul, Themis. The very fact that all of us have dug so deep into Mormonism in the first place proves we are all open minded to some degree.
That's why they have to attack us instead of the message, saying we really have other reasons not to believe. :)
Maybe you can get that nitwit (Leeuniverse) to find the names written in the writing of Facsimile No. 3. I've pressed for that information for years. It must be locked up somewhere in the First Presidency vault. Is there not a Mormon on earth that can produce the evidence from the evidence?
While there is a lot of evidence against the Book of Mormon, it's not a smoking gun. The Book of Abraham is. With one we have some the originals, and like you bring up all the time from one of the facsimiles, they copied into the Book of Abraham. We don't have the gold plates, but then there really wasn't any real Gold plates.
Could be that the Lord led all the horses across a narrow neck of land that was opened up in the midst of the sea and from a distance the land sunk and all the king's men and all the horses were drowned. That's it! That's the answer of the missing horses.
But what to do about all the missing artifacts that Chris has demonstrated should have been left behind by the former inhabitants of the land? Well, the angels gathered them all up and have placed them in an igloo-museum with the Ten Lost Tribes that are hidden somewhere in the northern country. When the Ten Tribes return they will bring all the lost Book of Mormon evidence and then the Latter-day Saints will rejoice in having faith in something that never existed. And the critics will go away into a lake of fire into which the wicked are cast.
To think of all the derision Dr. Peterson has been subjected to for suggesting that tapirs pulled chariots, when figurines such as this clearly show the use of Great Danes as a means of conveyance. Where is the humanity?!!!
ldsfaqs wrote:Simply not true..... I'm not saying there hasn't been "some" false positives, it happens in scholarship. But you again overstate your case. It is not true that all believed horse related finds are false. Some in fact are legit and are true. Clearly debunking the anti-mormon claim. All we need are a "couple" of evidences that are legit, and you are trashed, and we have them.
Did you even bother to look at the link? It shows several pictures of "horse" related artifacts, things that YOU CLAIM "don't exist" if the Book of Mormon claims were true.
They are all false positives. Not a single horse claim has any merit. If you can find a single, reputable, non-apologist scholar who thinks these are solid evidence of horses, I'll go to church on Sunday.
Why does he always run away when people ask him to give an example. I will ask him again to give which piece of evidence he likes best and start there and see if maybe there really is evidence for horses during Book of Mormon times. In fact, anyone else can provide just one to start.
