John 3:61

[_huckelberry]

Californiakid noted that he has some appreciation for Chaps reference to seeing Christs sufferening as an act of voluntary suffering with our suffering. He then added that image did not fit with the extent of the New Testament and Jesus comments about sacrifice being the sufferings true identity.

Californiakid, in a subsequent post included an observation that the ramsom theory can be a subsidiary to the idea of objective penal satisfaction to the father. One does not have to choose one over the other. The ransom theory centers on breaking our enslavement to evil and the devil. It has good scriptural credentials and can be understood as flowing from the objective satisfaction.

Californiakid made a post criticising the liberal view as disconnected from the scriptural foundation. I did not see anybody defending any classic liberal view but the position of taking moral example and sharing our suffering as the complete explaination would be that sort of view. People have seen it that way by reviewing the portions of the New Testament which picture Jesus as leading a renewal movement based not on priviledge and power but upon love and shareing. One can see a utopian vision which Jesus gave his life for because the power authorities, Roman and Jewish , saw it as a threat and an affront to their power position.

The utopian vision, a vision of the Kingdom of God is clearly there in the New Testament. Is it helped by eliminating the sacrificial understanding of the events ? I think that people may exclude the sacrificial language and choose to keep the moral example dimision only. I think they loose much meaning in the process. The Utopian vision needs the freedom from and overcoming of evil to be more than an image in a cloud on a summer afternoon. The overcoming of evil needs a strong connection with the source of life.

[_consiglieri]

Could you come speak in my ward? I might actually go to church, if that was going to happen (and I'd know... I'm the bulletin lady)!

I would love to come speak in your ward, Harmony!

Given your calling, maybe you could just stick me in the bulletin and see if anybody notices.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri