The Top Ten and Only Reasons to be a True Believer

[_subgenius]

....Where do you draw the line?

i have given this issue some more thought.
I can concede that Mormonism is circular in the same manner that logic is.
you bring up qualia.
obviously you understand that there are several logical arguments about qualia...several contradictory arguments, all of which are founded on rational and logical arguments.
These arguments for and against qualia all depend on their own systems and structures for validity and are without examination otherwise....yet they are contradictory and inconsistent in their conclusions.
This does not merit the claim that their systems nor conclusions are invalid.
However, when examined through another paradigm, theses same arguments may seem as nonsense.

its rather like the response i gave to Chap about numbers.

[_Themis]

Yup, heartburn is a terrible way to determine the truth since it is very conditional on what you may have just eaten.

What about other forms of spiritual expereinces. Do you think the body is capable of producing them as well?

[_Tobin]

Yup, heartburn is a terrible way to determine the truth since it is very conditional on what you may have just eaten.

What about other forms of spiritual expereinces. Do you think the body is capable of producing them as well?

Yup. If you are going to have a "spritual" experience, I would recommend a few things.
1) Do not be alone when it happens. Someone else being there to confirm it really happened is a nice bonus.
2) Actually see and hear something. Feelings are impossible to understand and are terrible way to determine the truth.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this whole "I felt something" diatribe most Mormons give as the pat answer to everything. Either really see something and hear it, or just say I could have fooled myself. If you do see and hear something (in the company of others) and know it happened, then that it is up to you afterwards to determine what to do about it. Until then, it is better to be a skeptic and an atheist.

[_Franktalk]

And this is exactly the point.
The witness by the Holy Spirit is insufficient in and of itself.

Yes you made that point very well. If someone listens and assumes it is the Holy Ghost you can be led to places you should not go.

[_Themis]

Yup. If you are going to have a "spritual" experience, I would recommend a few things.
1) Do not be alone when it happens. Someone else being there to confirm it really happened is a nice bonus.
2) Actually see and hear something. Feelings are impossible to understand and are terrible way to determine the truth.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy this whole "I felt something" diatribe most Mormons give as the pat answer to everything. Either really see something and hear it, or just say I could have fooled myself. If you do see and hear something (in the company of others) and know it happened, then that it is up to you afterwards to determine what to do about it. Until then, it is better to be a skeptic and an atheist.

I agree that feelings are a terrible way, but you do know don't you that group hallucinations are not uncommon?

[_Themis]

And this is exactly the point.
The witness by the Holy Spirit is insufficient in and of itself.

Yes you made that point very well. If someone listens and assumes it is the Holy Ghost you can be led to places you should not go.

How does one know it is the HG and not just your body creating the expereince. This is a topic you and others have avioded like the plague. At least Tobin admits they are a horrible way to determine truth.

[_subgenius]

Yup, heartburn is a terrible way to determine the truth since it is very conditional on what you may have just eaten.

it depends
heartburn is a terrible way to tell the truth about how to discipline your child but it is a great way to determine the truth about a burrito you just ate.

[_subgenius]

...Feelings are impossible to understand and are terrible way to determine the truth...

since when?

ever watch star trek?...the real hero was the captain...captain kirk.
not Bones, the passionate one
not Scotty, the fighter
not even Mr Spock

it was Kirk...the guy who encompassed the best of all these traits because he knew when and where to use them...and always trusted those intangible talents known as his "gut feeling".

There is truth in that

your method is very narrow and limiting.

[_Themis]

Yup, heartburn is a terrible way to determine the truth since it is very conditional on what you may have just eaten.

it depends
heartburn is a terrible way to tell the truth about how to discipline your child but it is a great way to determine the truth about a burrito you just ate.

Which is fine, especially since it is personal and very subjective, but them I suspect you knew we were talking about more objective truth claims that religions like the LDS tend to make. :)

[_Themis]

...Feelings are impossible to understand and are terrible way to determine the truth...

since when?

ever watch star trek?...the real hero was the captain...captain kirk.
not Bones, the passionate one
not Scotty, the fighter
not even Mr Spock

it was Kirk...the guy who encompassed the best of all these traits because he knew when and where to use them...and always trusted those intangible talents known as his "gut feeling".

There is truth in that

your method is very narrow and limiting.

You are using a fictitious Character to make comments about real truth claims. LOL by the way I am not against using your gut, but most understand it is not very reliable and should not be used when more reliable evidence is available.