Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Kevin Graham wrote:Jason, answer me this, because I have yet to get a single Romney supporter answer it for me:

What is it that Romney would do to improve the economy?

What is his economic plan?



Here is a basic outline of some of Romney's plans:

http://mittromney.com/blogs/mitts-view/ ... government

I think there are some good ideas but not all. I would like to see something for health care replace Obama Care because I am not how Obama care well really help and I think the cost is high. Another area I think Romney fails is defense. He seems very unwilling to cut there. And honestly that is one of my biggest gripes with him and the republicans. I am all for a strong defense but I think we could cut $100-$150 billion a year and still have the strongest defense on the planet. I do like that he seems serious about entitlement reform. I am firmly convinced that we must tackle that issue. And I am a bit worried about it personally given my age and all.

The only proposed solution I ever hear from the Right wing politicians is more tax cuts for corporations.


The corporate tax structure is a big issue and needs reform. Often the reason big companies do not pay a large tax is due to tax credits and often those credits are in the realm of research credits. GE gets big R&D credits. There is also the offshore issue. The US taxes on world wide income. Except a corporation can set up a subsidiary offshore and if that subsidiary invests its profits in productive assets the earnings don't get taxed until the company repatriates it by way of a dividend. This encourages US companies to invest abroad and can discourage non US companies from coming into the US.

Also manufacturing, which is broadly defined in the tax code, gets a 9% tax break now on its manufacturing net profits. But they way the benefit is computed is very cumbersome. If we really want to nurture manufacturing just lower the rates on such companies.

I would be for lowering corporate tax rates if the code is reformed to close loopholes.

I do not think Romney is proposing any new taxes at all. He does propose breaks to middle income tax payers on cap gains and other investment income. But as noted I do not object to increasing taxes by 5% or so on higher income earners nor increasing the cap gains to 20% or 25% for those over say $1 million and I would not likely object to the current idea that someone over $1 million pay 30% at least.

Like the banks who took all that TARP money. They were supposed to lend it out, but they did not. They sat on all that money and rewarded their executives with more bonuses. It is a joke, but it is the primary proposal offered by Romney. If you give more money to the so-called "job creators" then they will use that money to create jobs. That people still buy into this as a viable solution to our economic woes, is astounding to me.


My personal experience with my clients is that higher tax rates may not stop them from hiring and I agree a business hires to meet the demands of their business. But higher rates can stop expansion. I had one client who planned to vertically integrate his business but said if rates went up to 40% that cash flow burden would prevent the expansion. This would have added about 10 jobs to his company and also he would not have bought his plastic resin from overseas sources.

Anyway, I have thought about this over night. There are pro's and cons to Romney. Maybe I am biased because of my Mormon roots and his. I have always tended conservative but over the past 4 years have moved more moderate. My biggest concerns are the spiraling debt and the issues surrounding entitlement reforms and future unfunded liabilities. It seems we are heading for a brick wall and I am scared about it. I think that can be the biggest drag on our economy. Who is best able to help get our fiscal house in order? I am not sure really. Obama has not done so but I will give him credit especially last summer for working with the speaker to come up with what seemed like a reasonable start with lots of give and take on both sides. Yes I was upset the Boehner caved to the tea party loons in his congress.

I guess I am really a centrist. In some ways I could support Obama again. But not sure. That at least is where I am at after last night's reflections.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Kevin Graham wrote:Dude, you want to bash the deficit but you do not want to understand why we have a deficit.



Yes Kevin I do understand the deficit. If you recall I said the problems we have go back 30 years and cover many politicians bad policies from both sides. The big deficit spending started under Reagen. I also noted that I was for a war time tax. I believe if a nation goes to war you let the people participate by paying as you go. It will help the politicians resist conflict more and put pressure on to end it if the people are feeling it as they go. But again, the entire deficit was not caused by George Bush and this current President and congress has certainly added to it in large amounts. One can argue whether or not that was necessary given the economic challenges we have had over the past three years. I have read good economic arguments on both sides of that one.

But here is the deal Kevin....we are going broke as a nation. Sure the US can print its way out of this to some extent but that will destroy your wealth and mine awfully fast. The middle class and poor will really suffer then.
_Brackite
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Brackite »

moksha wrote:I agree with you on this troubling point about Santorum. I also find the conservative proposal to implant electrodes to dampen human brain activity in order to make more responsive voters and consumers to be troubling.

Getting back to Honorentheo's original post, Santorum knows that the true measure of morality is to be found in maximizing profits and reducing taxes. That is why the godless touting of global warning must be opposed, since it is fraught with the potential of decreasing profits and raising taxes.


Dear Moksha,

Is Rick Santorum really a fiscal Conservative?


Rick Santorum voted to raise the debt ceiling five times.

Rick Santorum voted for ‘The Bridge to Nowhere.’

Rick Santorum voted for Medicare Part D.

Rick Santorum voted for the war in Iraq.

(Rick Santorum now wants to go bomb Iran.)


Rick Santorum is Not really a fiscal Conservative.

Rick Santorum is a Pro-war, big government, social conservative who doesn't believe in science.


SANTORUM'S SATAN WARNING:
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3s.htm

Santorum goes full Satan:
http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?t=2395021
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_Droopy
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:
Droopy wrote:Here's...


He also thinks that mainline protestants / liberal Christians aren't Christians.


CFR. (at a bare minimum, to be a Christian, one must believe in the core claims of Christian teaching, such as that God exists, that Jesus is the divine, incarnate Son of God, and in Christian moral teachings).

That you might not care about, but you probably do care that there's no way he thinks LDS are Christians. I'm pretty sure he's more or less implied they are a dangerous cult. If you don't care about that now, you would under a Santorum presidency where his efforts to pervade the government with Christian rule have Mormons looking on the outside in.


You're intellectual deterioration continues apace.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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_Droopy
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Droopy »

To understand where we are in this country, you have to look at where we have been. Electing a Republican to the White House heads us right back in the direction we just came from.


Yes, electing yet another Rockefeller statest moderate/liberal will allow the continuance of the crisis. I'm not sure what you mean by "where we came from," as where we came from is where we are. The economy is far, far worse, after only 2-3 years of progressive/socialist rule then when the moderate statist last in office had the reins.

The problem is the Left and leftism, Keynesianism, statist paternalism, crony capitalism, the worship of government, and Karl Marx, not conservatives.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Droopy »

Two years ago I never though Obama would stand a chance at reelection, but now I think he has a pretty good chance. Primarily because the Republican candidates are so weak.


Nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide for R. McGraham. Out of the loop as usual, but not to worry, the inanity is only just beginning.

And whose fault is that? The Bush Tax cuts for the wealthy have to be rejected if we're ever going to dig our way out of this hole.


Let's forget USA Today and do some serious thinking all on our own. After Bill Clinton and George Bush, together, over nearly a 20 year period, left the nation with some 9 to 10 trillion in debt, Obama, by himself, in just 2 years, raised that to 15 trillion, and in another year to 16 trillion. Obama and his party have drastically increased the rate at which government debt has been created, and created the most obscene carnival of crony capitalism, economic fraud, business corruption, and destruction of private wealth in history.

The Bush tax cuts have nothing whatsoever to do with government debt. They are tax cuts to individuals in the private sector, and do not create debt. All the federal government needs to do, to avoid such cuts creating more debt, is to reduce spending by the amount of the tax cuts. If they do not, then any further debt has been created of their own free will and choice, and the political class has nobody to blame but itself.

The very argument itself is a clear demonstration of the fact that the major economic problems we face, regarding government's role in the economy, is out of control spending, not tax cuts. Petty, self aggrandizing moral posturing about "tax cuts for the rich" are nothing but a red herring for the real issue: the vast waste and destruction of wealth by a ravenous political class that uses the United States tax code as its primary engine of social engineering and permanent incumbency.

Graham then trots out, economic illiteracy and his well known lack of educational background in full bloom, the old hoary class war shibboleth, so beloved of pseudo-moralizing leftists everywhere, of "tax cuts for the rich." Lacking the desire or temperament to do any actual homework, he regurgitates the standard nostrums of others who agree with him while avoiding actual serious thinking on the matter.

The Bush tax cuts, in point of fact, went to everyone who paid taxes, with a bit more going to the upper earners, one fundamental reason being that those who earn much more income, and pay taxes at a much higher marginal rate, will, given any percentage rate of tax cut, get a "larger" decrease in absolute dollar amount then someone who makes $25,000 a year. Did the Bush cuts "disproportionately" help the wealthy? Of course they did, because any tax cut, regardless of the percentage, with have a disproportionate effect on someone with significantly higher earnings. If I make $30,000 a year, and get a 3% reduction in my marginal rate, that's going to help me, but not nearly as much as the same 3% reduction helps someone making $300,000 or $3,000,000 a year.

In any case, "the rich" are now pay more of the total tax burden then before Bush entered office, and the share of all individual taxes paid for the bottom 40% decreased from 0% to -4%, which means that the average American family in this income level was actually being subsidized by wealthier taxpayers. The top 20% at this time increased their share of tax payments from 81% to 85% of all income taxes paid.

Tax breaks for the wealthy would be reduced so that they are no better than those for the middle class. No household making more than $1 million a year would pay less than 30% in income taxes.


This is pure ideological twaddle, for a number of reasons. First, if any of these faux moralists were really interested in a "fair" rate of taxation, they would all be clamoring for a single, low, fair, flat tax on income at its source, and taxed only once. That, however, would throw cold water on the entire government-is-the-fountain-of-all-blessings mentality of the Left and of its project of total centralization of human life in the state.

Secondly, by any measure, the forced confiscation of upwards of 30% of one's hard earned income is tantamount to legal plunder. There is no possible rational, constitutional, or sustainable moral argument for taxes at these rates on the job and opportunity creating class of entrepreneurs and investors other than:

1. A rapacious thirst for wealth confiscation needed to fund the vast welfare state/regulatory bureaucracy that is the engine of dependency creation and regulatory control that buys politicians permanent or near permanent incumbency.

2. A purely emotion based animus against large sums of privately earned wealth, grounded in class resentment, that manifests itself as a desire to "cut the rich down to size."

Savings from winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would be put toward deficit reduction and investments sought by Obama, including new infrastructure spending.


As Iraq and Afghanistan unravel and set the stage for a far larger and more costly intervention in the future, let's not pretend that any savings from gutting the military (the only real target of real decreases in federal spending that ever actually materialize) will ever be used for deficit reduction. Neither Obama or his Democratic allies are interested in any such thing, nor do many of them have the economic literacy to understand how that could be achieved, even if they did.

About $350 billion in new investments, most of them remaining from Obama's American Jobs Act that was derailed in Congress, would be rejuvenated.


Yup, yet another Keynesian debt/inflation bubble of precisely the kind the got us where we are at the present moment. Government "investment" in the "creation" of jobs with taxpayer/fiat money? Uh huh...

And the next bubble(s) continues to swell

It doesn't matter. Until they end the corrupt practice of price speculations, the oil companies are going to continue to hammer us on gasoline.


This shows, if anything, the degree to which Kevin is incapable of serious thinking on his own and must be led by the hand from point to point, fact to fact, and logical argument to logical argument, in paint-by-numbers fashion, through any subject or issue of any gravitas.

Oil speculation has little to do with high gas prices, and the oil companies have nothing to do with it a all, except to the extent that the oil companies (the industry that fuels our entire civilization and its living standards) are doing nothing more than passing on to us the price of doing business in a country and under a political regime openly and viscerally hostile to its success, if not its existence, in a tax, regulatory, and political environment that has driven gas prices into orbit. These gas prices are purely artificial, and are a creation of a purely artificial shortage in supply driven by government policy, some of which has been the result of economic illiteracy in the past, but much of which now is animated by a psychological/ideological animus against energy production per se (itself driven by the truly monstrous ideological religion of AGW)

We are facing a critical shortage of gas because we are facing a critical shortage of drilling, R&D, refining infrastructure, and economic incentive. The same is true with our equally inane and shortsighted abandonment of nuclear energy, and both are completely political in nature and emanate from the federal government, not the oil companies.

This is something of a myth as well. Production has actually increased under Obama:


Graham now feels he has to lie outright in order to prop up Obama and the mainstream media's own flat footed deceptions on this matter. Graham's capacity to swallow Kool-aid is all but astounding. The flat footed lie here is not that oil production has increased somewhat while Obama's been in office. It has. The problem is that it has increased in spite of Obama's being in office, but because of any policies he's pursued (which have been viscerally anti-business and anti-energy, save for politically connected and useful industries, such as union-heavy manufacturing and pseudo-industries such as "green" energy companies).

That increase has occurred almost totally on private and state land, which the President has little ability to control (yet, and until he and other progressive ideologues in Congress figure out a way to remove the constitution from that activity as too). The federal government leases no more than 2% of offshore areas for gas production, and less than 6% of offshore land.

The problem, again, is several decades of anti-energy animus in Congress and a wildly unprincipled but fantastically funded and vetted environmental movement, and Obama, as usual, sits atop a huge intensification of the problem. Oil and gas production, on federal lands, as fallen 40% since 2000, and under Obama, leasing for offshore drilling is less than half what Clinton permitted.

What' s the truth Kevin doesn't want you to know? Virtually the entire increase in oil production during Obama's reign of economic terror has come from the North Dakota Bakken formation, which has increased production 250% over the last decade while federal production has fallen 40%, and no new refining infrastructure (or nuclear power plant) has been constructed in over thirty years. This is all private land, and Obama can only take credit, at best, for not standing in the way of it, which, believe me, he would do if he could, and is probably working on at the moment (his imbecilic killing of the Keystone pipeline has no rational basis other than pandering to his fringe environmentalist base)

Given that Obama vowed to destroy coal as an energy source before his election, and a ten year permitting process of coal or nuclear plants, the future under progressive, neo-Marxist rule does seem bleak.

You can't make people like Graham up. He's a self parody of the typical Obama voter.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Buffalo
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Buffalo »

Droopy wrote:This is pure ideological twaddle, for a number of reasons. First, if any of these faux moralists were really interested in a "fair" rate of taxation, they would all be clamoring for a single, low, fair, flat tax on income at its source, and taxed only once. That, however, would throw cold water on the entire government-is-the-fountain-of-all-blessings mentality of the Left and of its project of total centralization of human life in the state.


You can tell that Droopy slept through math class. A flat tax is the opposite of fair. Think about it.
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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Let's forget USA Today and do some serious thinking all on our own. After Bill Clinton and George Bush, together, over nearly a 20 year period, left the nation with some 9 to 10 trillion in debt, Obama, by himself, in just 2 years, raised that to 15 trillion, and in another year to 16 trillion.


This is why you'll never have credibility Loran. Anywhere. The 2009 fiscal year began October 1, 2008, nearly four months before Obama took office. This means Heritage, your primary source for all that is under the sun, doesn't know what it is talking about when it tried to blame Obama for Bush's massive deficit.

Here is the corrected graph posted by CATO Institute after Heritage tried to blame Obama for Bush's last year. You've seen it before and I know you'll never let it sink into that thick skull of yours, but I'm reposting for the benefit of those who aren't afraid of the facts.

Image

Likewise, the National debt for fiscal year 2009 was $11.9 trillion, which means the national debt literally doubled under George Bush in just eight years and it also means you do not know what you are talking about, yet again.

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/repo ... histo5.htm

Under Bill Clinton the national debt rose from $4 trillion to just over $5.6 trillion over the same eight year period. So your little deceptive rant here is telling, because you cannot even address the periods by Republican Presidents without trying to implicate others. You refer to a "twenty year period" because you want too lump CLinton into the mix and imply that he was just as guilty of exploding the debt. And you're doing the same rigfht now by blaming Obama for the crippling effect Bush's policies had on the economy.

Loran wants people to believe Obama suddenly spent an extra $5 trillion, but for the life of him, he cannot explain to us where he spent that money and/or how. What legislation did he pass that caused a $5 trillion jump in the debt? This is where he'll go silent or write up another thirty pages of rhetoric to derail from the question. I've asked idiots like Loran for months to explain to us what Obama has done to explode the deficit and the debt, as they insist he has done. They can't say. All they know is that it must be true because he's in office while the debt keeps skyrocketing. Plus, Sean Hannity says so, and he's a "great American" who would never lie!

But who has the time to constantly correct an overgrown child who keeps trying to find meaning and identity in this life by presenting himself as an authority on everything he clearly knows nothing about. Facts mean nothing to people like Loran. And notice the switcheroo he pulled on the issue of taxes. He avoids the arguments and goes back to the Limbaugh-scripted derailment about how the wealthy pay the bulk of the taxes, which has nothing to do with the point I made. The fact is the Bush Tax cuts have crippled the economy. You cannot have expenditures without income and Loran has already admitted that his hope is that the government becomes absolutely starved of funding. He has a phobia of government like those in his camp. He is an extremist with no proper home in today's political landscape. He rejects education for fear-mongering rhetoric which he pulls from discredited websites like WND and American Thinker. The government cannot just "stop spending" to compensate for the dramatic decrease in income it has suffered at the hands of Republicans, and only the extremely ignorant folks on the far right, who know nothing about basic economics, live in this fantasy world. They have no solutions. None. Their only proposal is to starve government and let the corporations run amok unregulated. Of course, we've seen how well that's worked out haven't we?
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

You just can't make this up folks!

"Bush tax cuts have nothing whatsoever to do with government debt... Oil speculation has little to do with high gas prices"

Thanks for the new signature Loran!

You need to think about going back to finish school. When you understand how dramatic cuts in income cause debt to skyrocket, maybe then you'll see how truly asinine your rants are.
_EAllusion
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Re: Santorum - Droopy in a Sweater Vest?

Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:
CFR.


I already linked one example in this thread. He flat stated that liberal Christians shouldn't be considered Christians. You're being lazy here Droopy.

If you want another,

We all know that this country was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic but the Judeo-Christian ethic was a Protestant Judeo-Christian ethic, sure the Catholics had some influence, but this was a Protestant country and the Protestant ethic, mainstream, mainline Protestantism, and of course we look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is in shambles, it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it.


http://www.avemaria.edu/NewsEvents/Podc ... fault.aspx

(at a bare minimum, to be a Christian, one must believe in the core claims of Christian teaching, such as that God exists, that Jesus is the divine, incarnate Son of God, and in Christian moral teachings).

How fun to see a Mormon try this. There are Christians who have alternative views of Jesus's relationship with the divine that are no less Christian for having that view than Mormons are for having their out there theological tangents.
That you might not care about, but you probably do care that there's no way he thinks LDS are Christians. I'm pretty sure he's more or less implied they are a dangerous cult. If you don't care about that now, you would under a Santorum presidency where his efforts to pervade the government with Christian rule have Mormons looking on the outside in.


You're intellectual deterioration continues apace.


I'm not even sure which part of this you consider false. You expect a guy who is questioning the Christian status of millions upon millions of mainstream Christians and is highly fundamentalist is going to thumbs up Mormons as Christians? That makes sense to you? Because your experience with fundamentalist evangelicals/Catholics who use the term as a label of doctrinal correctness says they're down with Mormons? If that is your experience, I recommend you look into this website:

www.google.com

Anyway, here's a Santorum article that winks his distrust of Mormons as Christians so hard I think he bruised an eyelid:

http://articles.Philadelphia.com/2007-12-20/n ... h-religion

That said, the Romney speech came in the context of two concerns that some voters have raised about his religion: How would his Mormon faith affect his presidency? Would a Mormon president enhance the stature of Mormonism and lead more Americans to convert to that faith?

Romney tried to settle the first question by saying that "no authorities of my church . . . will ever exert influence over my decisions." Fine, though few thought this would happen in the first place. He also said that "a person should not be rejected . . . because of his faith." His supporters say it is akin to rejecting a Barack Obama because he is black. But Obama was born black; Romney is a Mormon because he accepts the beliefs of the Mormon faith. This permits us, therefore, to make inferences about his judgment and character, good or bad.

He tried to address the questions by discussing Jesus, suggesting that the specific theological tenets of Mormonism are not in any important respect different from those of traditional Christianity. I disagree. However, voters should use extreme caution in factoring theological tenets into their assessment of a candidate's qualifications, because theological tenets, as opposed to moral tenets of a religion, transcend reason - consider, for example, the virgin birth.

But, it is fair to look at a candidate's faith from the standpoint of its moral teachings or, as Catholics say, its "social teaching."

Romney hit on the correct voter question: "Does [the candidate] share these American values: the equality of humankind, the obligation to serve one another, and a steadfast commitment to liberty?" He said "yes," and provided some examples to bolster his answer. It was Romney's best argument to Christian conservatives - we may not see God the same way, but we see our obligation to God's people the same way.

It could have been even better had he acknowledged a fact that can't help be true for a person of real faith - that the moral teachings of an individual's faith will do more than shape his character, they will influence his decisions.

The social teachings of my faith were a factor in my work as a senator. The horror of AIDS and the tragedy of the millions of orphans it has left in Africa prompted my support for greater U.S. funding. But it was Christ's mandate to care for the poor that inspired my efforts to take a leadership role.

Romney missed an opportunity to connect with Christian conservatives by citing specific moral teachings that Mormonism has in common with their faith.

Would the potential attraction to Mormonism by simply having a Mormon in the White House threaten traditional Christianity by leading more Americans to a church that some Christians believe misleadingly calls itself Christian, is an active missionary church, and a dangerous cult?

How does a candidate possibly address such concerns?

Assume for the sake of argument that there are valid considerations. Shouldn't we look at everything about the candidate, including positions on the issues that could have even a more dramatic impact on Christianity than his personal faith? What about the candidate's willingness to confront the threat of radical Islam's war against Christianity, or the current efforts to undermine our Judeo-Christian culture and even our religious freedom? Like most voters, my faith matters more than politics, but we are electing someone to the most important political position in the world. I'm more concerned about losing our children to jihadis or a materialistic culture than losing them to Mormonism.

I admire President Bush's religious commitment, but I've never been tempted to become a Methodist. Kennedy's election didn't produce a surge of converts to Catholicism in the 1960s. A Mormon in the White House? Christianity has survived far tougher tests over the last 2,000 years.


And that's his pro Romney article.
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