Jewish Proxy Baptism combined thread

[_bcspace]

Okay, so as to reduce the work load of re-posting the same information in multiple threads, I am going to make it easy on myself. And, since I am apparently the only one who is willing to do any actual research, I have an update for you. First, the manual on name submission and direct line descent:

Determining Which Names to Submit
You are responsible to submit names of the following individuals for temple work (the individuals must have been deceased for at least one year):

•Immediate family members.
•Direct-line ancestors (parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on, and their families).

You may also submit the names of the following individuals who have been deceased for at least one year:

•Biological, adoptive, and foster family lines connected to your family.
•Collateral family lines (uncles, aunts, cousins, and their families).
•Your own descendants.
•Possible ancestors, meaning individuals who have a probable family relationship that cannot be verified because the records are inadequate, such as those who have the same last name and resided in the same area as your known ancestors.

Do not submit the names of persons who are not related to you, including names of famous people or names gathered from unapproved extraction projects, such as victims of the Jewish Holocaust.

You may submit the names of individuals with whom you shared a friendship. This is an exception to the general rule that members should not submit the names of individuals to whom they are not related. Before performing ordinances for a deceased individual who was a friend, you should obtain permission from the individual’s closest living relative.

"Chapter 7: Providing Temple Ordinances," Member’s Guide to Temple and Family History Work, (2009)

Now, from familysearch.org which is more up-to date and does further restrict direct descent with regards to Jewish Holocaust victims (but not Jews in general):

Restricted Submissions

Church members should not submit individuals that they are not related to (with the exception of close friends as described above). This includes:

Famous people.
Those gathered from unapproved extraction projects.
Jewish Holocaust victims. Members cannot do the ordinances for Jewish Holocaust vicitims except under the following conditions:
-They are an immediate family member of the deceased (defined as parents, spouse, or children), or
-They have permission of all living immediate family members, or
-They have permission of the closest living relative if no immediate family members are living.

https://help.familysearch.org/publishing/620/110136_f.SAL_Member.html#PermissionOrdinances

And of course you may read the rest since I have provided the url.

[Guest]

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[_just me]

I've been in classes where the Denver Temple recorder specifically asked that people NOT do collateral lines.

Collateral lines should never be done without the permission of all their living descendants.

[_DarkHelmet]

Why would a church spokesman say this to the media?

"Proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims are strictly prohibited," says Mormon church spokesman Michael Purdy, who also acknowledges that the Wiesel names appeared in the database.

Obviously proxy baptisms of Jewish holocaust victims are not strictly prohibited. Is this a case of the church trying to appease the public?

[_bcspace]

I've been in classes where the Denver Temple recorder specifically asked that people NOT do collateral lines.

Collateral lines should never be done without the permission of all their living descendants.

Still permitted with relative approval within 95 years of course. From the link in the OP:

Other Possibilities

Church members may also provide temple ordinances for the following family members who have been deceased at least one year. For individuals born within the last 95 years, permission from the closest living relative is required. (See section 7, Permission to Do Ordinances.)

Biological, adoptive, and foster family lines connected to their family.
Collateral family lines (uncles, aunts, cousins, and their families).
Descendants.
Descendants of direct-line ancestors and their families.
Possible ancestors. These are individuals who have a probable family relationship that cannot be verified because the records are inadequate. These may include individuals who had the same last name and resided in the same small geographic areas as known ancestors.
Close friends. This is an exception to the rule that members should submit only the names of individuals of their own family and ancestors. Before performing ordinances for a friend, a member should obtain permission from the individual's closest living relative.

[_just me]

I've been in classes where the Denver Temple recorder specifically asked that people NOT do collateral lines.

Collateral lines should never be done without the permission of all their living descendants.

Still permitted with relative approval within 95 years of course. From the link in the OP:

Other Possibilities

Church members may also provide temple ordinances for the following family members who have been deceased at least one year. For individuals born within the last 95 years, permission from the closest living relative is required. (See section 7, Permission to Do Ordinances.)

Biological, adoptive, and foster family lines connected to their family.
Collateral family lines (uncles, aunts, cousins, and their families).
Descendants.
Descendants of direct-line ancestors and their families.
Possible ancestors. These are individuals who have a probable family relationship that cannot be verified because the records are inadequate. These may include individuals who had the same last name and resided in the same small geographic areas as known ancestors.
Close friends. This is an exception to the rule that members should submit only the names of individuals of their own family and ancestors. Before performing ordinances for a friend, a member should obtain permission from the individual's closest living relative.

Right. Permission. Which is rarely sought after. It also doesn't change what I've been told by the DTR.

There is talk of extending the 95 year rule to 110.

[_bcspace]

Why would a church spokesman say this to the media?

"Proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims are strictly prohibited," says Mormon church spokesman Michael Purdy, who also acknowledges that the Wiesel names appeared in the database.

Perhaps you are cherry picking Purdy because it has also been said:

The LDS Church policy “is that members can request these baptisms only for their own ancestors,” church spokesman Scott Trotter said Tuesday in an email. “Proxy baptisms of Holocaust victims are strictly prohibited.”

[_bcspace]

Right. Permission. Which is rarely sought after.

What makes you think that? A few highly publicized cases?

It also doesn't change what I've been told by the DTR.

But it does change what you reported what was stated, that collateral lines should not be done at all.

[Guest]

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[_bcspace]

Everyone seems to be making a huge deal out of Baptisms for the dead, but what about Endowments and Sealings for the Dead??

Yes. Proxy baptism is just the beginning.

Isn't it just as offensive to the Catholic church or any other religious group for that matter to do these things in their name after they are dead? Isn't the practice just really offensive?

As you imply, it's no big deal to any rationally thinking person. But yes, I think even some Catholic diocese are not allowing the Church access to their records.