Tobin wrote:Answer what? Grant resigned. There was no church court. Ther was no excommunication. There is no account from him about how he answered each individual charge in the church court because it never happened.
In another thread I said I have agreed with Grant on various things he has said in that past too. Particularly about his criticims that the church is too focused on an exclusive instead of an inclusive Jesus. I also agree with him that nobody but Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon. I don't agree that Joseph Smith wrote it or that it is a 19th century production, but I didn't say I agree with everything Grant has to say. And there are many other points that I agree and disagree with him on as well. It isn't like I'm unfamiliar with what he has had to say.
Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote: Grant Palmer was disfellowshipped in 2004, and recently threatened with excommunication. So there was a court.
If you want to play your little games, go ahead. It is plain as day you took what I said completely out of context. There is no point even responding to you if you have to be so obviously dishonest. I made no reference to his disfellowship at all.
You said there was no church court. No need to be so sensitive.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
SteelHead wrote:Tobin, I am pretty sure the details being asked are regards to which part of the book(s) are lies. Focus like a laser.
Drifting wrote:In another thread Palmer exposes some of the details surrounding the Church's attempt at discrediting this book by threatening him with excommunication if he refused to state the contents were lies. Obviously he refused and he was excommunicated. But which part of the books contents are lies?
SteelHead, look at the OP please. Ok, now pay attention and read very carefully. There was no Church court, so there is no account by Grant on what he was specifically asked or answered with. I certainly don't know what the Church considered lies in his book since I'm not the Church. Now if the Church would like to officially comment about what they consider lies in his book, I'd be happy to offer my opinion on whether I agree with them or not.
Now there was a Church court to disfellowship Grant and the proceedings were taken down. When Grant publishes that and discusses it, then I can tell you if I agree or disagree with the Church or Grant's position.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
SteelHead wrote:Fine Tobin, now look at the underlined part of the OP. Where in the book are the lies?
If I understand Tobin, he is saying since there was no discipline (Grant resigned) the church is obviously fine with the book and so is he.
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die." - Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
SteelHead wrote:Fine Tobin, now look at the underlined part of the OP. Where in the book are the lies?
Actually he's written two books http://mormonthink.com/grantpalmer.htm. Maybe they had the wrong book. After all, there is a book titled 'Physics for Game Programmers' out there by Grant Palmer too. I would have liked to sit on that Church court when Grant stated he never wrote that book.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I have a copy of physics for game programmers. Good book, different Palmer. But instead of splitting hairs please delineate where Grant lies in one of his books.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.
Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality. ~Bill Hamblin
SteelHead wrote:I have a copy of physics for game programmers. Good book, different Palmer. But instead of splitting hairs please delineate where Grant lies in one of his books.
Has Tobin read Palmer's book? There's nothing in there that I can think of that misrepresents anything. He just lays out the evidence clearly and succinctly and invites the reader to decide. If the evidence were made up or dishonest, then Tobin might have a point. But until he can show how and where Palmer "lies," I'm not sure what point he's making.
Runtu wrote:Has Tobin read Palmer's book? There's nothing in there that I can think of that misrepresents anything. He just lays out the evidence clearly and succinctly and invites the reader to decide. If the evidence were made up or dishonest, then Tobin might have a point. But until he can show how and where Palmer "lies," I'm not sure what point he's making.
Tobin has been asked if he has actually read Palmer's book ("Insiders Guide to Mormon Origins"), but he keeps avoiding answering this question.
Tobin have you read it? Yes or No? (just a simple one word answer, please!!)
If not, go read it and then come back and maybe we will take you seriously.
If you have, please be specific and post what you feel are lies within this book.
SteelHead wrote:I have a copy of physics for game programmers. Good book, different Palmer. But instead of splitting hairs please delineate where Grant lies in one of his books.
I don't know that Grant is lying. He may be reasonably be able to support all of his assertions. Lying is a harsh word in scholarship and you need a lot of evidence to show someone is lying. Perhaps the Church has invested the time, money and resources into proving that Grant should have known that such and such was not true.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:I don't know that Grant is lying. He may be reasonably be able to support all of his assertions. Lying is a harsh word in scholarship and you need a lot of evidence to show someone is lying. Perhaps the Church has invested the time, money and resources into proving that Grant should have known that such and such was not true.
That would explain why the apologetic response to Palmer has been only ad hominem attack and sneering about the Golden Pot.