Miss Taken wrote:Why me, it seems to me that in some ways William Law is the ideal apostate. He spent most of his life trying to forget that he was ever Mormon, and refused to speak about it. He didn't (as with John C Bennett) write or try to publish memoirs about his experience or go round the various States talking about his ordeal. He didn't try to make money off the back of Mormonism. He just got on with his life with quiet dignity. Or so it seems to me anyway..
I think that Law felt some guilt about what happened to Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. And I can understand this. There is no question that he saw just how emma was affected by her husband's murder. If I were Law, I would feel a little remorse for what I had done. No surprise that he spent the rest of his life quiet about his former Mormonism.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
moksha wrote:Regarding the William Law podcast, I will be disheartened to read about Professor Midgley going through the Palmer garbage can looking for attack material. I want to hear some TBMs address the William Law podcast. It seems essential that this be addressed on a factual basis. I have never before heard as devastating information against the Church as this, so please don't doddle.
Uh huh, sure it is. Let me sum up what it really is - hearsay sprinkled with rancid drivel. Just the concoction that enemies of Mormonism love to drink. Sounds lovely. Any TBM with any sense will just ignore it and let it pass like the other non-sense out there.
This is precisely the kind of tripe a questioning member would hear from his/her Church leaders, and which is causing so many members to walk away, per Marlin Jensen's recent admission.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
I think that Law felt some guilt about what happened to Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. And I can understand this. There is no question that he saw just how emma was affected by her husband's murder. If I were Law, I would feel a little remorse for what I had done. No surprise that he spent the rest of his life quiet about his former Mormonism.
I think you misunderstand him Why me. He apparently felt that his life was in danger. (see his letters) He used a lot of his own money to set up the expositor, when others were telling him to be quiet and just go. He seems to be a principled man, who honestly felt that the injustices meted out against him and others should be uncovered, and he obviously couldn't square the practice of polygamy and polyandry with what he knew of the biblical and Book of Mormon admonitions against the practice. He wasn't (as I understand it) a part of the Council of 50, despite being the first counselor in the first presidency. He wasn't in the very inner circle that existed at that time. He hadn't taken out the second endowment. At the end, he wasn't loyal to Joseph. He obviously felt that Joseph had gone too far. How many of us would have stayed loyal to Joseph in those circumstances? Remember he was independently wealthy, he was intelligent, he was hard working and an entrepreneur, he was a thinking man. Can you dig up any dirt on him?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Miss Taken wrote:Tobin, I appreciate that you are trying to protect unwary members from paying too much attention to what William Law did and said. I understand that. But do you think that the allegations that were initially made against him were true? Was he an adulterer? Was he a seducer? Was he taking advantage of the poor? Was he a counterfeiter? These are serious accusations. Are they actually true? What do you think?
Did Joseph deal fairly with him?
The adultery accusation is found only in one source that I am aware of--Hyrum Smith when trying to mar Law's character. Of course, even that reference acknowledges that Law was "reanointed" in the "Anointed Quorum" after allegedly confessing to adultery. Seems strange they would bring it up something he had repented of and was forgiven for. Nauvoo Neighbor-Extra, 19 June 1844, p. 2. Quinn cites this source in Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power on page 517.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Miss Taken wrote:Tobin, I appreciate that you are trying to protect unwary members from paying too much attention to what William Law did and said. I understand that. But do you think that the allegations that were initially made against him were true? Was he an adulterer? Was he a seducer? Was he taking advantage of the poor? Was he a counterfeiter? These are serious accusations. Are they actually true? What do you think? Did Joseph deal fairly with him?
What I believe happened is that William Law had had enough of Joseph Smith and he absolutely hated the idea of polygamy. I think that is what his excommuniation was mostly about. After his excommunication, I believe he was just looking for ways to hit back. The reason I doubt his objectivity during this period is precisely because he was in that "hitting back" mode. He felt unfairly drummed out of the church. As a result, he got up to lots of unneccesary things. He was spewing venom and looking for the most hurtful things to say, and naturally those have some basis in truth.
IF he had stepped back from the situation, tried to calmly and rationally work with people and persuade them - not been accusatory, then he would have my sympathy and understanding of his position. That was not the case and that is why I don't find him credible during this period.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
He and Hyrum didn't seem to get on. Particularly after the incident where Joseph promises to support a particular politician in return for some favours, whereas Hyrum is hell-bent on supporting the opposition against Joseph's word. Again, Law 'seems' to be acting on principles of honesty and keeping a man at his word.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
IF he had stepped back from the situation, tried to calmly and rationally work with people and persuade them - not been accusatory, then he would have my sympathy and understanding of his position. That was not the case and that is why I don't find him credible during this period.
I do have some sympathy with him Tobin, particularly since he felt his life was in danger and yet still wanted to stand up for his principles. I agree that at this point he is not being loyal to Joseph.
Do you think his later letters should have any credibility. The ones he wrote towards the end of his life?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Miss Taken wrote:I do have some sympathy with him Tobin, particularly since he felt his life was in danger and yet still wanted to stand up for his principles. I agree that at this point he is not being loyal to Joseph. Do you think his later letters should have any credibility. The ones he wrote towards the end of his life?
Certainly. I think reflection and objectivity and time are always good things. And don't get me wrong. I don't think he was an evil man either. I just understand how people get when they are in that fight-or-flight mode.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
What I believe happened is that William Law had had enough of Joseph Smith and he absolutely hated the idea of polygamy.
Do you have any sympathy with 'why' he had had enough of Joseph?
Definitely. Joseph Smith was rather full of himself. I can just see the swagger in some of his statements and the foolish things he stepped into as a result. He also tended to lock horns with a lot of people and left a trail of excommunications behind him.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom