G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexual Allegations

[_moksha]

I hate to break it to you, Tobin old boy, but DarthJ is one of the most intelligent and incisive posters on this board.

Intelligence doesn't compensate for bias.

The exception is when we exercise bias in Israel.
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What of the charge that the Laws were oath-breakers when they revealed their disgust for that wife swapping scheme in the newpaper? The destruction of the printing press seems mild compared to the penalties which could have been inflicted.

[_Mary]

How long did he live? At what age did he die? Joseph Smith died at the tender age of 38. Whose life was in danger and who made Joseph's life more difficult? Law?

Why me, I don't believe (from the little study I have done over the past couple of days), that Law foresaw the death of Joseph at the hands of the mob. Intentions are everything here, surely. Law speaks of two events where he felt his life was in danger, one when he felt he would be poisoned and another with regard to the Native American Indians. From 'his' point of view, I would say, that at the time, especially as regards the Danites and Council of the 50, that he was justified in feeling a little paranoid, even if it was only paranoia.

As regards Joseph's sexual proclivities. He obviously liked women. He was a congenial chap, a 'fine man' as Law describes him. I would imagine he was highly sexed. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of people are at points in their lives, both male and female. Sometimes though, the evidence surrounding his pursuits both in his early marriage, Hill, Alger, the incident that resulted in the tarring and the threat to castrate him - suggests that there is no smoke without fire. If this were David Koresh, we wouldn't be giving this a second thought. Joseph doesn't appear to be held to the same standards and foibles as the rest of society. He himself, said somewhere (sorry forgot where I read it over the last couple of days), that he wasn't righteous, and didn't want people to think he was.

He's quite the enigma. That's for sure!

[_Drifting]

I do have some sympathy with him Tobin, particularly since he felt his life was in danger and yet still wanted to stand up for his principles. I agree that at this point he is not being loyal to Joseph.

Do you think his later letters should have any credibility. The ones he wrote towards the end of his life?

How long did he live? At what age did he die? Joseph Smith died at the tender age of 38. Whose life was in danger and who made Joseph's life more difficult? Law?

I may be mistaken, but I don't recall that Law forced middle aged Joseph into having sex with teenagers and other men's wives. Nor, from memory can I think of any evidence that Law coerced Joseph into destroying the printing press.

Perhaps you should stop blaming other people for Joseph's actions and start holding him accountable for what he did and the self inflicted problems his behaviour caused.

[_RockSlider]

In reading the Fair Wiki on the City of Nauvoo/Nauvoo Expositor, it starts out with a single sentence and quote from William Law, and then dives into a large section (percentage wise of the article) about John C. Bennett's apostasy.

Yes, I as a believing Mormon always did lump Bennett, Law, printing press = J.S. Martyrdom -- always good to reinforce this.

But wait a minute here … what did Bennett have to do with the Expositor (other than being one accused by it)? Why is he brought up here?

And then a section on the Assassination attempt of Boggs. I assume Fair finds the accusation that Joseph Smith had involvement in this the most damning and/or the only one (of 15 resolutions) which they had any defense/explanation for. Of course there are no other signs that this could be a legitimate accusation


And then a section on Laws apostasy, where they make it sound like Law was a weeping cry baby, that just was not strong enough to accept the revelation on polygamy , and that he bought his property on the hill instead of from the Church (which he knew owned no property other than the temple). But of course addressing one of the Expositor's resolutions of secret excommunications without giving the accused public rebuttal is not addressed, nor Law's contention that the excommunication was not legal.

And then the section on the reasoning for the destruction of the expositor … public safety … weak … very weak.

And then we finish up with a list of the attempts to arrest poor Joseph … but I note these only cover attempts in 1844. How many times, from the foundation of the church was poor Joseph running from the law, from mobs, from tar and feathering? The whole of it because of unjust and sever religious persecution.

Fair wiki, total fail on this topic.

[_Kishkumen]

William Law did nothing wrong by acting in accordance with his conscience. If someone wants to claim he did, then one may as well scrap the entire Primary program, wherein the basic qualities of human decency that Law upheld and fought for are taught every Sunday.

[_Chap]

And then the section on the reasoning for the destruction of the expositor … public safety … weak … very weak.

Well, there was a clear public safety issue here - the issue of whether after the publication of the Expositor it was safe for Joseph Smith to go out in public without people shouting at him "You lying polygamist bastard!".

It is a sign of how divorced from reality Smith had become that he did not see that by destroying the Expositor's printing press all he had done was to change the shouts to "You lying polygamist power-crazed despotic bastard!"

I still don't think that gave people the right to lynch him, of course. But when that did happen, it was not exactly lightning striking out of a clear sky, was it? And it seems to have happened in major part because the mob was motivated by beliefs about Smith's actions that were in substance correct.

[_Kishkumen]

At some point, people just have to come to terms with the fact that polygamy was a huge mistake, and that anyone with an ounce of self respect should have spoken out against it as Law did. That Law is held to be the villain here, when what he did was shine the light of truth on the decade of Joseph Smith's lies and betrayals of his family and friends, is astounding to me. Of course, people also love to worship the folks who pick their pockets to pad their fat wallets.

[_Chap]

At some point, people just have to come to terms with the fact that polygamy was a huge mistake, and that anyone with an ounce of self respect should have spoken out against it as Law did. That Law is held to be the villain here, when what he did was shine the light of truth on the decade of Joseph Smith's lies and betrayals of his family and friends, is astounding to me. Of course, people also love to worship the folks who pick their pockets to pad their fat wallets.

I am not sure I am entirely happy with the word 'mistake' for polygamy: it is too mild by far. On the other hand, I don't quite want to call it a crime either.

I would like to find a short expression that captures the aspect of self-deluding megalomania and grasping at transgressive sexual gratification through religious charisma that Smith seems to have shared with a number of other religious leaders in history.

Maybe 'lust-fueled ego-trip" would do it?

[_RockSlider]

I am not sure I am entirely happy with the word 'mistake' for polygamy: it is too mild by far. On the other hand, I don't quite want to call it a crime either.

Just read the Expositor first edition again this morning ... the section about bringing woman from foreign lands and then sexually exploiting them ... sorry absolutely criminal, on top of the worst kind of immoral.

[_Mary]

Not sure that polygamy was a mistake, but certainly the way it was practiced, was, in my opinion.

There must have come a point, where what Joseph, with the help of others, had created, whether based on literal truth, or based on his free-thinking, imaginative personality and his own search for some kind of religious truth, became 'bigger' than him, bigger than the original group that created it and molded it.

Despite the hiccups of the early leadership, no-one can doubt that the church today is full of good, moral, upright people.

This is one of the greatest marvels and most positive products of Mormonism to me, despite the fact the some of the more dubious aspects of the early LDS church continue to live on in actions and attitudes of the LDS faithful even today.