G.Palmer Mormon Discussions Podcast on Joseph Smith Sexual Allegations

[_Tobin]

I don't think there is any way a society can be asked to permit a special exception to monogamy for a religion that has more female members than male.
The practice of polygamy by more than a tiny minority leads to obvious social harm, as I think you concede. No sane modern society can sensibly permit it. Don't you agree?

Yes and Yes!!:)

Ah, so the Muslim society (which permits polygamy) is neither a sane nor modern society. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that characterization.

[_Chap]

Ah, so the Muslim society (which permits polygamy) is neither a sane nor modern society. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that characterization.

Yup, to the extent that they permit polygamy their social organization is neither rational nor modern. That's what you get when you allow religion to dictate social legislation.

You have a problem with that?

[_Tobin]

Ah, so the Muslim society (which permits polygamy) is neither a sane nor modern society. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that characterization.

Yup, to the extent that they permit polygamy their social organization is neither rational nor modern. That's what you get when you allow religion to dictate social legislation. You have a problem with that?

I think Muslims might have a problem with that. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to hear your views on what is wrong with their society.

[_Chap]

Ah, so the Muslim society (which permits polygamy) is neither a sane nor modern society. I'm sure they'll be happy to hear that characterization.

Yup, to the extent that they permit polygamy their social organization is neither rational nor modern. That's what you get when you allow religion to dictate social legislation. You have a problem with that?

I think Muslims might have a problem with that. I'm sure they'll be thrilled to hear your views on what is wrong with their society.

Repetitious kind of guy, aren't you?

And your point relevant to the social desirability of polygamy is what, exactly?

[_Mary]

Tobin, I did put a caveat into my statement!! It's a murky area...

I've just found the pages on Dale's site that deal with the conversion of some of the Cochranites.

Seen in the context of the times, I don't think the general experimentation with family groups and sexual practices is so out of the ordinary...


http://olivercowdery.com/gathering/JCochran.htm


Mary

[_Chap]

....I still think there might be occasions when [polygamy] would be necessary, or productive... I'd hate to make a hard and fast rule about the way all societies should conduct themselves...

OK. Think of some occasions when it might be socially beneficial for a modern society to permit the general practice of polygamy by anybody who wanted to, assuming that we continue to have roughly equal numbers of men and women in the population.

Then tell us what exactly those occasions might be. Until you can, maybe we had better stick to having a hard and fast rule against it, like most advanced countries do.

[_marg]

Now, I do not know what occurred with Joseph Smith and his wives (and others involved at the time). I do not know what personal revelations they received. The suggetion is that Joseph Smith was engaged in wife swapping in an era in which such a thing would not have been tolerated by anyone. It is an assault on not only Joseph Smith but the women (and husbands) involved.

I don't think you've listened to the podcast this thread is referring to. Grant is not suggesting Smith was encouraging wife swapping but rather Emma acknowledged to someone (I don't remember who Grant mentioned)that she was quite aware Smith practiced adultery and polygamy. And it was Emma who said to Smith that it wasn't fair to her and that she should also essentially have a sex partner outside the marriage. And apparently she liked William Law. So they approached the Laws or perhaps William on his own, (not sure) asking if William would agree to being a partner for Emma. At that time Smith was not propositioning Jane Law. So it wasn't a matter of wife swapping, nor marriage of any sort. William refused. And apparently there are 2 D & C pronouncements on this. One with a subtle suggestion that Smith give Emma something and a later one suggesting that was only a test. And the second D & C Emma was said to have interpreted that it was a threat on her life if she didn't comply.

(I'd get into greater details on the D & C's and what Grant said, but I don't have time..perhaps Tobin you could listen to the podcast yourself)

[_Mary]

Then tell us what exactly those occasions might be. Until you can, maybe we had better stick to having a hard and fast rule against it, like most advanced countries do.

Chap, so nice to be chatting to someone who is so obviously against it! :) I'm very happy NOT to be living in a polygamous society. However I do live in a society where there is a heck of a lot of different types of family units and how many people have affairs? I suspect that in society in general quite a lot. If you gave me a choice between an above board polygamous family man, and a man or woman who lied and cheated on each other, then I think I would take the polygamous family man...

[_Mary]

Also a good wiki article here Tobin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Cochran

[_Chap]

Then tell us what exactly those occasions might be. Until you can, maybe we had better stick to having a hard and fast rule against it, like most advanced countries do.

Chap, so nice to be chatting to someone who is so obviously against it! :) I'm very happy NOT to be living in a polygamous society. However I do live in a society where there is a heck of a lot of different types of family units and how many people have affairs? I suspect that in society in general quite a lot. If you gave me a choice between an above board polygamous family man, and a man or woman who lied and cheated on each other, then I think I would take the polygamous family man...

We are talking social policy here, not whether it is possible for a single given polygamous family to be a decent place to live, or whether a monogamous couple can be hell on earth.

Clearly, given the choice about whether a society should give general legal permission for polygamy or not, you are against it, just as I am.