Jaredite Studies on MDD: For Nightlion & Tobin

[_Tobin]

I'm sure the MDD posters mean well, but that is quite a hike from Babylon to China (not that it couldn't have happened, since the story is relatively sparse on details). And if that were true that they went that far away, why not just have the Jaredites hike up to the Bering Strait, float across, and hike down?

It seems to me the story indicates something else as propulsion other than ocean drift. Clearly the mention of a constant wind and the resulting waves would be entirely unneccessary to the story if it was true that they could have just drifted there. I also agree that there is no reason to think that the barges could have arrived at the same place if that were true.

No, I think if the story is true, then God would have had to describe some relatively advanced technlogies to the Jaredites to build into the barges to make such a trip even possible. The text mentions that the craft had a very odd design with a portal in the top and bottom indicating that they were designed to flip over. Also, the use of a light source that didn't require fire is another indication of some sophistication being involved.

[_Nightlion]

In other words, if established science precludes any remote possibility of some theory regarding the Jaredites being correct, then to hold or expound upon such a theory, as this unfortunate individual did, just makes one look silly. Would you not agree?

Afraid I am 'bout as cozy with Established Science and I am with Established Religion.
But, heck, if the land was NOT divided when Jared and company took off they could have saved themselves lots of grief and travel time by truckin' West and walked to the Choice Land of Promise. If the Peleg thing was continents moving apart I would have to imagine it was happening at the same time and therefore the only safe way was the more stable Asia route and then across the sea. The Lord may have kept them out to sea extra long so the land stopped shaken.

Sure science has to error on the side of millions of years, fearful of being stupid for not being cautious. Science allows for plate tectonics. Super sliding plate displacement is therefore a possibility and who can say what that looks like afterward? It could have occurred in a few weeks and the residual fall out settled and none were the wiser.

Like my wife reminds me often about jumping to conclusion about who's doing what....
"If you don't see it with your own eyes then just be quiet." Science never will. Me neither.

[_Nightlion]

I'm sure the MDD posters mean well, but that is quite a hike from Babylon to China (not that it couldn't have happened, since the story is relatively sparse on details). And if that were true that they went that far away, why not just have the Jaredites hike up to the Bering Strait, float across, and hike down?

It seems to me the story indicates something else as propulsion other than ocean drift. Clearly the mention of a constant wind and the resulting waves would be entirely unneccessary to the story if it was true that they could have just drifted there. I also agree that there is no reason to think that the barges could have arrived at the same place if that were true.

No, I think if the story is true, then God would have had to describe some relatively advanced technologies to the Jaredites to build into the barges to make such a trip even possible. The text mentions that the craft had a very odd design with a portal in the top and bottom indicating that they were designed to flip over. Also, the use of a light source that didn't require fire is another indication of some sophistication being involved.

On the one hand you wan to ascribe advanced technology and on the other you want the boats to flip over. That sounds very stupid. Another reason for a hole in the bottom is to leave it open so that the pulsation of the water in a column would pump out the air and circulate fresh air, clear out smoke. Perhaps......it drove bilge pumps to get rid of the waste water, just a simply syphon down in a bilge pool would do.

OKAY take a look at this video holeinthebottom

[_Tobin]

I'm sure the MDD posters mean well, but that is quite a hike from Babylon to China (not that it couldn't have happened, since the story is relatively sparse on details). And if that were true that they went that far away, why not just have the Jaredites hike up to the Bering Strait, float across, and hike down?

It seems to me the story indicates something else as propulsion other than ocean drift. Clearly the mention of a constant wind and the resulting waves would be entirely unneccessary to the story if it was true that they could have just drifted there. I also agree that there is no reason to think that the barges could have arrived at the same place if that were true.

No, I think if the story is true, then God would have had to describe some relatively advanced technologies to the Jaredites to build into the barges to make such a trip even possible. The text mentions that the craft had a very odd design with a portal in the top and bottom indicating that they were designed to flip over. Also, the use of a light source that didn't require fire is another indication of some sophistication being involved.

On the one hand you wan to ascribe advanced technology and on the other you want the boats to flip over. That sounds very stupid. Another reason for a hole in the bottom is to leave it open so that the pulsation of the water in a column would pump out the air and circulate fresh air, clear out smoke. Perhaps......it drove bilge pumps to get rid of the waste water, just a simply syphon down in a bilge pool would do.

OKAY take a look at this video holeinthebottom

Nightlion, a vessel that can be flipped over while the internal structure keeps the occupants properly oriented would seem to be rather advanced would it not? I can't think of vessel in use today that can do that? I would suggest to you that it isn't stupid to cite that - but reinforces my point.

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion and Tobin ....

Turns out that both of us may have been wrong.

Both means two, so which two is it? Me and you or you and Tobin?

The winds could have just been what sent everyone out of Babel. And it could have been because continents were on the move. Like you said, without a high profile they were adrift regardless.

[_Tobin]

Nightlion and Tobin ....

Turns out that both of us may have been wrong.

Both means two, so which two is it? Me and you or you and Tobin?

The winds could have just been what sent everyone out of Babel. And it could have been because continents were on the move. Like you said, without a high profile they were adrift regardless.

Nightlion, I believe he's speaking to me. I suggested that the Jaredite barges used advanced wave-riding technology from the Lord (hence the description of the wind and the waves the Lord caused). The description is pointless without that kind of capability since the barges wouldn't have moved at all. After all, the barges didn't have a mast or any internal propulsion or steering mechanisms. The only alternative is ocean currents but that is problematic as well.

[_Nightlion]

On the one hand you wan to ascribe advanced technology and on the other you want the boats to flip over. That sounds very stupid. Another reason for a hole in the bottom is to leave it open so that the pulsation of the water in a column would pump out the air and circulate fresh air, clear out smoke. Perhaps......it drove bilge pumps to get rid of the waste water, just a simply syphon down in a bilge pool would do.

OKAY take a look at this video holeinthebottom

Nightlion, a vessel that can be flipped over while the internal structure keeps the occupants properly oriented would seem to be rather advanced would it not? I can't think of vessel in use today that can do that? I would suggest to you that it isn't stupid to cite that - but reinforces my point.

Did you watch the video?

[_Nightlion]

hmm? Seems like a few MDDers like to thought-mine Nightlion and conflate and expand to their hearts content over there.
If I ever get an attribution there please send me a line. Have they dared broach the Caral, Peru thesis? I suspect many are gnawing at the bit for it. Just waiting for the forgotten moment when I will not get mentioned. They will need buckets for their drool.

Nightlion,

Since it apparently does your psyche great violence to read the MDD board, I will certainly let you know if I happen to see mention of your screen name when I am over there (which under normal circumstances is not that often, believe me.)

Most kind of you to keep me in mind. Thanks

[_Tobin]

Did you watch the video?

Yes, I prefer my theory since it more closely matches what the text says.

[_Dantana]

Dr. W, I posted this on the watercraft thread over at the Mad board...

I grew up being taught that the reason for the holes in the top and bottom were for when the ship flipped over in the tempest. With the advent of the Internet I think perhaps critics have sunk their teeth into this, shared notes and pointed out reasonable reasons for why flipping ships isn't reasonable. In the latest threads I've been reading it seems many apologists have abandoned ship and argued for non-flipping barges. They theorize that the reason for the hole in the bottom is for discarding waste and siphoning in oxygen.

To me this seems so contrived. The only thing I can think of as reason for having a hole in the bottom of your ship would be for counting fish, torturing mutineers or scuttling your vessel. If one happens to have a pump that can discharge waste water under pressure, you could have a" through hull" below waterline, but short of that, the sensible thing to do to discharge waste would be to put the through hull *above* waterline.

Also, In the video posted I never did see a navel destroyer, I saw some type of fishing vessel. Walls of water were not cascading down on it because waves were breaking down on it, it was plowing into the seas under power. It is a heavy, cumbersome vessel (not light like a fowl). And, the heavy seas breaking at the sea walls were doing so because, as I described in an earlier post, waves build and break over when they reach the shallows. If you look out to sea in that vid you will see that the seas are not breaking....other than small white caps.

Also, I have a hard time understanding why the Jaradites needed to build *previous* barges. To cross what? A river? Raft it. The red sea? Walk around it. The Med? Sail out the straits.

Also, if the the waters were subjected to terrible tempests that required unorthodox vessels that lasted longer than god wanted to wait, Wouldn't the lands be also subjected to these tempests? How does a crew build a barge in a permenate hurricane?

Also, how many man years would it take to build a barge....in a hurricane? One man 10 years, ten men one year. I think it would take more men to build than it could support for one year at sea.

Also, I never have understood the reason for these unorthodox designed dish ship. A person could take a mid 20th century, Alden or Rhodes, or Sparkman and Stevens design wooden sailing vessel, close up the hatches and sail that sucker through a hurricane. That little Westsail from the "Perfect Storm" was found a few weeks later....still making way.

Plus with a vessel that has a deck and propulsion and steering and ballast and ground tackle and secondary skiffs has the advantages of not having it's occupants starved and suffocated and wet tumbled and going stir crazy....to name a few.

I submit that that a contemporary wooden sailing vessel, which the Jaradites could have built under gods direction just as easily, would withstand the supposed forces subjected on the barges as well if not better and made the narrative much more plausible