Family dies holding hands, praying

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Buffalo »

Chap wrote:
If anyone thinks Hoops is doing more than waste time here, please say so.


That's all he ever does. He very rarely sinks to the level of "discussing things" with "people who post here."
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_zeezrom
_Emeritus
Posts: 11938
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:57 pm

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _zeezrom »

Hoops,

Here is my answer to how I think God should have answered the family's prayer:

Cause the bolts holding the structural members of the house to fuse together at just the right moments such that the structure would stay whole. Vacuums would be created near the floor so that each person would stay in place. The wind of the tornado would whip the structure around horizontally so that the people would not get hurt. Land the structure on something that is collapsible (say, someone else's empty house) to soften the landing.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

zeezrom wrote:Hoops,

Here is my answer to how I think God should have answered the family's prayer:

Cause the bolts holding the structural members of the house to fuse together at just the right moments such that the structure would stay whole. Vacuums would be created near the floor so that each person would stay in place. The wind of the tornado would whip the structure around horizontally so that the people would not get hurt. Land the structure on something that is collapsible (say, someone else's empty house) to soften the landing.


Okay, fair enough. So you are okay with God interacting (or even interfering) in such a tangible way? That's fine and thank you.

What would you have God do with the family who MEANT to pray, but in their rush to secure themselves they didn't get to it?

My point is this: if you are going to condemn God for His inaction (allegedly), then you have to offer what action is acceptable and reconcile the consequences of the actions you propose.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Chap »

Hoops wrote:
zeezrom wrote:Hoops,

Here is my answer to how I think God should have answered the family's prayer:

Cause the bolts holding the structural members of the house to fuse together at just the right moments such that the structure would stay whole. Vacuums would be created near the floor so that each person would stay in place. The wind of the tornado would whip the structure around horizontally so that the people would not get hurt. Land the structure on something that is collapsible (say, someone else's empty house) to soften the landing.


Okay, fair enough. So you are okay with God interacting (or even interfering) in such a tangible way? That's fine and thank you.

What would you have God do with the family who MEANT to pray, but in their rush to secure themselves they didn't get to it?

My point is this: if you are going to condemn God for His inaction (allegedly), then you have to offer what action is acceptable and reconcile the consequences of the actions you propose.


I think Hoops thinks that Zeezrom's answer was meant seriously ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

It's the only one I've gotten so far. It's at least something.
_Panopticon
_Emeritus
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Panopticon »

Hoops wrote:
I asked HOW - not the end result.


Let's start with a world in which tornadoes don't occur. The placement of the Rocky Mountains and the Gulf of Mexico create the perfect conditions for tornadoes. While we are on the subject of what God could do (or could have done), how about choosing a world that was more tectonically stable. This could have prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indonesians.

The subtext of almost all believers' arguments is that there is some good to natural evil. Pain is "God's megaphone," as C.S. Lewis so crassly put it.

I reject the idea that tsunamis or weather-related disasters are necessary. They are incredibly blunt instruments where God has much more precise control over who lives or dies.
http://www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Tobin »

Panopticon wrote:
Hoops wrote:
I asked HOW - not the end result.


Let's start with a world in which tornadoes don't occur. The placement of the Rocky Mountains and the Gulf of Mexico create the perfect conditions for tornadoes. While we are on the subject of what God could do (or could have done), how about choosing a world that was more tectonically stable. This could have prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indonesians.

The subtext of almost all believers' arguments is that there is some good to natural evil. Pain is "God's megaphone," as C.S. Lewis so crassly put it.

I reject the idea that tsunamis or weather-related disasters are necessary. They are incredibly blunt instruments where God has much more precise control over who lives or dies.

Ah, the ole world without death routine.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

Let's start with a world in which tornadoes don't occur. The placement of the Rocky Mountains and the Gulf of Mexico create the perfect conditions for tornadoes.
But don't tornadoes have some positive result?

While we are on the subject of what God could do (or could have done), how about choosing a world that was more tectonically stable.
Biblically speaking, He did.

This could have prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indonesians.
So now your complaint is that He should have made a world without death? Biblically speaking He did that to.

The subtext of almost all believers' arguments is that there is some good to natural evil. Pain is "God's megaphone," as C.S. Lewis so crassly put it.
Yes, it would appear that there is. Do you disagree?

I reject the idea that tsunamis or weather-related disasters are necessary.
How do you know?

They are incredibly blunt instruments where God has much more precise control over who lives or dies.
So this is your preference? That God exercise such control that one family dies and the other lives? How would you have Him choose?
_Panopticon
_Emeritus
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Panopticon »

Tobin wrote:
Panopticon wrote:
Let's start with a world in which tornadoes don't occur. The placement of the Rocky Mountains and the Gulf of Mexico create the perfect conditions for tornadoes. While we are on the subject of what God could do (or could have done), how about choosing a world that was more tectonically stable. This could have prevented the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Indonesians.

The subtext of almost all believers' arguments is that there is some good to natural evil. Pain is "God's megaphone," as C.S. Lewis so crassly put it.

I reject the idea that tsunamis or weather-related disasters are necessary. They are incredibly blunt instruments where God has much more precise control over who lives or dies.

Ah, the ole world without death routine.


I didn't argue for a world without death, although a world with substantially less suffering would be nice. I know it is difficult for middle-class Americans to realize that there is really significant suffering out there. We sit here in our ivory towers and argue the finer points of theodicy while people are starving to death in Somalia and being massacred is Syria.

Are you at least open to the possibility that this is not the best of all possible worlds? It is that belief that motivates us to tame the environment, wipe out disease, etc. If God causes disease, why do anything about it? Just let things happen as he wills.

Of course, none of us think that way, but we are willing to give God a pass on so much non-redemptive suffering, thinking that platitudes like "free will" explain it all.
http://www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up
_Panopticon
_Emeritus
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:25 pm

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Panopticon »

Hoops wrote:
Let's start with a world in which tornadoes don't occur. The placement of the Rocky Mountains and the Gulf of Mexico create the perfect conditions for tornadoes.
But don't tornadoes have some positive result?


You mean like it gives people an opportunity to do charity work? Or making people want to go back to church?

If it does so much good, perhaps you should volunteer to participate in God's next display of his "omnibenevolence."
http://www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up
Post Reply