Family dies holding hands, praying

[_harmony]

What can I say? I'm anti-douchebag. My position is firm on that issue.

You think children are worth more than women. (I noticed you didn't quibble about the woman/women that died...) Good to know.

[_Buffalo]

What can I say? I'm anti-douchebag. My position is firm on that issue.

You think children are worth more than women. (I noticed you didn't quibble about the woman/women that died...) Good to know.

Yes. And worth more than men too. I'm very ageist that way.

[_harmony]

Yes. And worth more than men too. I'm very ageist that way.

Thus the product is more worthy than the materials... without which the product could not be produced.

I don't agree. I don't think children are more valuable than adults. I don't think adults are more valuable than children. I don't think the elderly are more valuable than those that are younger or vice versa.

I'm very non-ageist that way. (but then, I have birthed and raised 8 children who are now no longer children but adults. What could I possibly know about anything?)

[_Panopticon]

God also wanted their baby to survive for a while, but then die of head injuries, for some reason. He also wanted the neighbor, Jason Miller, to barely survive.

That God. What a prankster!

Please provide evidence for this assertion.

A believer asking a non-believer for evidence. Hilarious!

Are you suggesting by your response that God did not want their baby to survive, and/or he did not want Jason Miller to barely survive?

Let me rephrase the question. Does anything happen in the natural world (leaving side the free will of human beings) that is contrary to God's will? If so, you believe in a very limited, lower-case "g" god. I could never worship or have faith in such a being.

[_Panopticon]

I would have him stop taking the credit when things go well and stop leading to believe He will intervene when clearly He has no intention of doing so.

Now, do you think a persons prayers can make a difference to wether God acts or not?

So you don't like what He didn't do, but you can't offer what He should do. How exactly would God satisfy you in this specific instance?

It wouldn't happen because tornadoes wouldn't exist. I have been shown no compelling evidence for why they are a necessary part of a "plan" for making God's children more like him.

The best explanation I have heard, which I reject, is that all of the random acts of destruction on a massive scale are needed so that we can't figure out that God exists. He intentionally conceals his existence. However, this argument implies that people would believe in God if there weren't random acts of description, which suggests that people intuitively believe that a God would not allow such acts to happen.

[_Panopticon]

What a bunch of cry babies! Just because you know that God can do anything does not justify our demand that he do anything at all. Do you want a world filled with inconsolable wooses?

God COULD prevent every harm. Got a booboo? Scream to high heavens against God for allowing you to get a tiny little booboo on your precious skin, awe, kism better?

Do you get my drift fellas? I a little embarrassed like everyone in the room is gay but me.

Oh, geeze, not that there is anything wrong with that........just, ya know, sayin.

Buffaoney, Christ owes nothing to nobody who does not come in at the gate and get established upon his rock which is his gospel. We are commanded to obey before the promises. Doo you all want to hear me innumerate all my blessings? hmm? Well, do ya?

Cry babies, huh? These kids are dead.



And you're an asshole.

While the death of the family is recent and painful, let's not forget the much more massive acts of destruction that God has perpetrated (or allowed -- which is the ethically the same thing). While this doesn't make God the greatest mass murderer of all time (Stalin or Mao probably hold that title), he is probably equal with Hitler just counting the top ten deadliest natural disasters.

1. 1,000,000–2,500,000* 1931 China floods China July, November, 1931
2. 900,000–2,000,000 1887 Yellow River flood China September, October, 1887
3. 830,000 1556 Shaanxi earthquake Shaanxi Province, China January 23, 1556
4. 500,000 1970 Bhola cyclone East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) November 13, 1970
5. 316,000 2010 Haiti earthquake Port-au-Prince, Haiti January 12, 2010
6. 300,000 1839 India Cyclone India November 25, 1839
7. 230,210 - 310,000 2004 Indian Ocean Tsunami Sumatra, Indonesia and also affected India, Sri Lanka, Maldives December 26, 2004
8. 250,000–300,000 526 Antioch earthquake Antioch, Byzantine Empire (now Turkey) May 526
9. 242,419 (the death toll has been estimated to be as high as 665,000)[1] 1976 Tangshan earthquake Tangshan, Hebei, China July 28, 1976
10. 234,117 1920 Haiyuan earthquake Haiyuan, Ningxia-Gansu, China December 16, 1920

[_Panopticon]

Ah. That which seems preposterous to you cannot possibly have not seemed preposterous to early Christians, so even if they seem to be saying something you find uncomfortable, they can't have meant it really.
An excellent way of learning the truth. I wonder why you need the New Testament at all, since your own sense of what you find acceptable and what not is such a clear and reliable guide.
The clear statements I quoted from James and Jesus about the results to be expected from a believer's prayer were certainly not allegories, by the way. They were not even parables (which, I think you will find, are usually taken to be rather different things from allegories).

IF you want to make the case that the Bible should be read literally, then I think you should make it with someone that views it that way. I do not. I view the Bible as merely instructive and that should be read with a critical eye, some knowledge and understanding, and reason. Otherwise, you can be literally lead by it into believing a number of rather absurd and false notions.

That's good for you as an intellectual to say, but the vast majority of people in the world take it literally.

If I say something to you, and I know that you will take it the wrong way, I am essentially guilty of lying to you.

D&C 19 is a great example. God frequently says, through his prophets and apostles, that there will be everlasting punishment, which he knows will be taken literally. Then, God admits through Joseph Smith that he was using this language to scare people: "wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory." He then goes on to explain that when he said "endless," he didn't mean forever. Of course, nobody would have taken it that way. In other words, the Mormon god purposefully told a lie to manipulate behavior.

Why shouldn't people hold him to his word? How many times has a child prayed for help and then been brutally raped and murdered? This family was staring down a tornado and did what they had been told to do -- pray in faith -- but it was totally useless. As C.S. Lewis observed, “Every war, every famine or plague, almost every death-bed, is the monument to a petition that was not granted.” He referred to the promises that whatever we prayer for in faith we shall receive as "embarrassing."

They are more than embarrassing. If God exists, they are obvious lies.

[_Buffalo]

Yes. And worth more than men too. I'm very ageist that way.

Thus the product is more worthy than the materials... without which the product could not be produced.

I don't agree. I don't think children are more valuable than adults. I don't think adults are more valuable than children. I don't think the elderly are more valuable than those that are younger or vice versa.

I'm very non-ageist that way. (but then, I have birthed and raised 8 children who are now no longer children but adults. What could I possibly know about anything?)

As a dad who is raising one child, I'll counter that in my experience, most adults are worthless wankers. Kids are awesome.

[_Nightlion]

If God exists, they are obvious lies.

You run a smear campaign against a being you deny even exists.
We will have to construct a NEW pigeon hole to put that behavior in.
The Mormon Tumbler pigeon hole. How's that?

Hebrews 5: 8
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
D&C 105: 6
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

Learn obedience by the things they suffer. Or in wisdom by witnessing what others suffer.

Where then is the net gain in obedience.......?..........hmmm? Nowhere.
Somewhere? Anywhere?

Oh, yeah, Jesus believed already and only needed to have his obedience tweaked by suffering. And the MY PEOPLE assumes also that they too already believe and only need a nudge to enhance obedience.

So um, all the world that does not believe, and that forsakes believing, and even campaigns against faith, how much suffering and witnessing of the suffering of others would they be responsible for so that God is obeyed, eventually.

So it would seem that YOU are more responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world than the caprice of God. The more you multiply disobedience and open defiance and relish mocking blasphemy against the Most High the greater the amplitude of destruction until the earth is consumed. Way to go chump. You just triggered the end of the world.

Was not just your fault? Okay then the collective disobedience of all. How's that?

IF God exists then he is allowed to insist that he is not mocked and that abomination does not reign. So, live by the iffy and die by the iffy, pal.

I do not think random acts of violence are targeted to the most unworthy or to punish anyone specifically. Christ spoke to such in his parables. Everyone stands before time and chance. And if some want their prayers heard and petitions respected how then should they have conducted their lives endearing their faith in God up to the moment of their urgent need?

I say 99.99% of all humanity is vapid and unthinking moment to moment about their devotion to God. Who carries a prayer in their heart continually? Who actually stands before the Lord of all the earth day and night? God only promised to protect his Zion if needs be by devouring fire upon its enemies. Of course a real Zion would have to exist first before thee is any need of protecting it. I'd say you got some time to kill. A time before dying. With such consistent violence spewed against God how shall you hardly keep you hands off from molesting a real and true Zion. I fear the fires of your ultimate destruction are kindled already in your heart of hearts.

[_Jason Bourne]

How about sucking the funnel of the tornado back in the the heavens and thus stopping the storm in from its destructive path. Sort of like Jesus did when he calmed the storm on the Sea of Galilee.

Yes, I understand that may seem reasonable. But where to go from there? Does mean that there can be no tornadoes where people are? Because I'm fairly certain that people will be praying. You've read the rest, you know where I'm going with us.

Why can't there be no tornadoes? I am not sure where you are going with this really. So maybe if I say no tornadoes then how about no earthquakes, no hurricanes, no any natural disasters. As I noted this is what God intended, right? Why then did he let two humans thwart His original plan? More on this in response to the next post I made that you responded too.