Family dies holding hands, praying

[_Jersey Girl]

No WE did not fail. I didn't. You didn't. Adam and Eve did.

Maybe you can reference someone who has not failed?

Two people I really like are going at it. I will take a crack at expressing my own take on this...in case going at me is more agreeable to you guys. No, really, I can take it!

So...here's the deal. God created everything--including let's use Adam and Eve (though I am not entirely certain I should take them literally, but yeah, I will for this and if it doesn't make sense, I'm prepared to take all of this back and demand a do-over :-).

When God created Adam and Eve, (or humankind) God knew that humankind would sin/fall. In Genesis, God is speaking from outside the creation to his creations--Adam and Eve.

God cannot enter an imperfect world.

So....God created the creation in including humans, all sorts of nature stuff, knowing that it could never be perfect.

If any of this makes any sense, I would like to flesh this out....no pun intended.

Just say "go" and I will do it.

:-)

[_Jersey Girl]

Wait a sec, what I wrote makes it appear that I'm waiting for permission to speak my peace.

Yeah right!

So God created an imperfect world, knowing that on account of human nature (not being gods) and knew that nothing in the world was eternal, but subject to rot and decay. (I secretly love the word "rot").

And yet, this all knowing God, knowing everything that he set in motion would go nutty (including tornadoes), made a way for human beings to survive it and one day enter a perfect world that's going to stay perfect (but I don't know how or why)....and the way is...you guessed it...

Jesus Christ.

Okay I'm done. Don't hold me to it.

[_Hoops]

Two people I really like are going at it.

But, Jersey Girl, it's Hoops and Jason?

I will take a crack at expressing my own take on this...

I LOVE it when you do. If you haven't figured out what I've been telling you all this time, this post is a great example.

in case going at me is more agreeable to you guys. No, really, I can take it!

I'd rather not go at anyone - but particularly you and some others.

So...here's the deal. God created everything--including let's use Adam and Eve (though I am not entirely certain I should take them literally, but yeah, I will for this and if it doesn't make sense, I'm prepared to take all of this back and demand a do-over :-).

You've earned more than your share of do-overs. But I doubt you'll ever need them.

When God created Adam and Eve, (or humankind) God knew that humankind would sin/fall. In Genesis, God is speaking from outside the creation to his creations--Adam and Eve.

Yes, He did. But let's also remember that He created outside of time. Time was created just like everything else. I think this is a critical part to explaining much of the Old Testament. Particularly the creation story.

God cannot enter an imperfect world.

Hmmm.... you lost me here. Jesus entered an imperfect world. And isn't Jesus the author of creation? And doesn't he hold the universe together with His hands? For one to take your position, one would have to agree that all the supernatural events described in the Old Testament are metaphorical or symbolic. I'm not sure we can do that. Or that we SHOULD do that.

So....God created the creation in including humans, all sorts of nature stuff, knowing that it could never be perfect.

Well, it could have, if A&E had not sinned. But, yes, He knew it would not.

If any of this makes any sense, I would like to flesh this out....no pun intended.

Just say "go" and I will do it.

I'm always anxious for your contributions.

[_Hoops]

So God created an imperfect world,

Could you live with "a perfect world subject to imperfection"?

knowing that on account of human nature (not being gods) and knew that nothing in the world was eternal, but subject to rot and decay. (I secretly love the word "rot").

If you mean after the fall, certainly.

And yet, this all knowing God, knowing everything that he set in motion would go nutty (including tornadoes),

What a great way to put it! I love it!

made a way for human beings to survive it and one day enter a perfect world that's going to stay perfect (but I don't know how or why)....

Made a way to draw us to him.

and the way is...you guessed it...

Jesus Christ.

You answered your own question (ahhh...pretentious, sorry) The same way He can make us perfect is the same way He can make creation perfect - again.

[_Panopticon]

If God exists, they are obvious lies.

You run a smear campaign against a being you deny even exists.
We will have to construct a NEW pigeon hole to put that behavior in.
The Mormon Tumbler pigeon hole. How's that?

Wrong. I want people to stop believing in such a silly concept as the Mormon god. If your god is the universe, natural law, etc., knock yourself out. However, the world would be a better place if fewer people believed in the cosmic terrorist that is Elohim/Yaweh.

[_Panopticon]

If God exists, they are obvious lies.

I say 99.99% of all humanity is vapid and unthinking moment to moment about their devotion to God. Who carries a prayer in their heart continually? Who actually stands before the Lord of all the earth day and night? God only promised to protect his Zion if needs be by devouring fire upon its enemies. Of course a real Zion would have to exist first before thee is any need of protecting it. I'd say you got some time to kill. A time before dying. With such consistent violence spewed against God how shall you hardly keep you hands off from molesting a real and true Zion. I fear the fires of your ultimate destruction are kindled already in your heart of hearts.

I agree with your first point. With regard to the last point, I say: bring it on. I really do hope that God exists. If he someday asks my why I didn't believe in him, I will ask, like Bertrand Russell, "why didn't you make yourself more evident."

[_Panopticon]

How about sucking the funnel of the tornado back in the the heavens and thus stopping the storm in from its destructive path. Sort of like Jesus did when he calmed the storm on the Sea of Galilee.

Yes, I understand that may seem reasonable. But where to go from there? Does mean that there can be no tornadoes where people are? Because I'm fairly certain that people will be praying. You've read the rest, you know where I'm going with us.

Why can't there be no tornadoes? I am not sure where you are going with this really. So maybe if I say no tornadoes then how about no earthquakes, no hurricanes, no any natural disasters. As I noted this is what God intended, right? Why then did he let two humans thwart His original plan? More on this in response to the next post I made that you responded too.

I will repeat: I'm not calling for a world without death. I'm saying that a world in which 2,000,000 Chinese people die in a flood is total BS. If there is a God, I can't imagine why he wouldn't intervene to prevent such catastrophes. On a micro level, I have a hard time with God not saving this family from the tornado.

God, if he exists, is infinitely callous in his disregard for the suffering of mankind. If you believe in Mormonism, you will likely believe that this cycle of suffering will go on forever because it is all part of the heavenly order.

Like Ivan Karamazov, I reject God because his world is built upon a foundation of suffering. As in Ursula Le Guin's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnw ... omelas.pdf), I cannot accept a plan of happiness for a few that is conditioned upon so much misery.

I am deeply troubled by the problem of theodicy. It is one of the reasons I do not believe in God. Many people, such as Bart Ehrman, found atheism for the same reason.

[_Hoops]

I will repeat: I'm not calling for a world without death.

Then please describe this world where everyone dies of natural causes. And address the consequences that will cause while your at it. However, I suspect that once God had intervened and granted your wish, your next wish will be that no one under... say.... that age of 10 dies naturally. Then 15. then 35. etc.

I'm saying that a world in which 2,000,000 Chinese people die in a flood is total BS.

It is difficult to grasp, I agree.

If there is a God, I can't imagine why he wouldn't intervene to prevent such catastrophes.

Please describe the particulars of this intervention.

On a micro level, I have a hard time with God not saving this family from the tornado.

As it were, I heard on the radio today of a family who was in the exact same situation. They prayed. They were saved. There house was destroyed.

As an aside, is God just as culpable for not saving their house?

God, if he exists, is infinitely callous in his disregard for the suffering of mankind.

There's a great deal of suffering, for sure. What would you have Him do?

If you believe in Mormonism,

I don't.

you will likely believe that this cycle of suffering will go on forever because it is all part of the heavenly order.

I don't and it isn't.

Like Ivan Karamazov, I reject God because his world is built upon a foundation of suffering. As in Ursula Le Guin's The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/dunnw ... omelas.pdf), I cannot accept a plan of happiness for a few that is conditioned upon so much misery.

I feel sorry for you. There is so much beauty in the world as well. Much more than ungliness, I would contend. Despite the messiness of man.

I am deeply troubled by the problem of theodicy. It is one of the reasons I do not believe in God. Many people, such as Bart Ehrman, found atheism for the same reason.

Strangely, I found God by looking the other way. But then, I'm a believe, so by default I'm not as smart as you.

[_Drifting]

Now, do you think a persons prayers can make a difference to wether God acts or not?

Hoops, I can't see where you have answered this question....

[_Chap]

Now, do you think a persons prayers can make a difference to wether God acts or not?

Hoops, I can't see where you have answered this question....

Dream on, Dude. First you have to answer any question she may yet think of, such as 'what kind of action by God are you thinking of?'.

There - saved her a post.