DCP's puff pieces now include supernatural tall tales

[_Buffalo]

I suppose it's ambiguous enough to mean either paradise or the Celestial Kingdom. But it's curious that the recently departed departed from accepted LDS terminology.

How do you know they did? It supposedly comes from a small girl to her parents then to DCP. What happened at each of these stages that could change the story. Has memories of the event been changed. What kind of mental filters were used in the girls experience, and then the parents. We know so little of this story or so many other things about the world around us that the most reasonable thing to do is smile and not worry about it. Even most believers will probably be skeptical of it to some degree.

Obviously the story isn't true.

[_Themis]

Obviously the story isn't true.

Which part?

[_Buffalo]

Obviously the story isn't true.

Which part?

The supernatural parts.

[_Equality]

And even if you do want to be hypertechnical like that, then hypertechnically that is not actually precluded by LDS theology. According to D&C 132, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have already attained godhood---meaning they entered the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom---even though a general resurrection and final judgment of the entire human race has not happened.

And Alvin Smith got to bypass the spirit world and go straight to the celestial kingdom without spending (much, if any) time in the spirit world, if D&C 137 can be believed:

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

[_krose]

LDS do often refer to any afterlife (as well as pre-life) as "heaven."

What I think is strange is when they talk about nonbelievers going to "hell," which is much harder to harmonize with LDS doctrine.

[_Darth J]

And Alvin Smith got to bypass the spirit world and go straight to the celestial kingdom without spending (much, if any) time in the spirit world, if D&C 137 can be believed:

I think most Mormons are going to interpret that as a vision of the future, rather than Alvin being in the Celestial Kingdom at the time of the purported vision.

Joseph Smith was supposed to have had this vision on January 21, 1836. He said he also saw his father and mother in the Celestial Kingdom. Joseph, Sr. and Lucy Mack were both alive on January 21, 1836.

[_Darth J]

LDS do often refer to any afterlife (as well as pre-life) as "heaven."

What I think is strange is when they talk about nonbelievers going to "hell," which is much harder to harmonize with LDS doctrine.

Guide to the Scriptures: Hell

Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101).

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

[_RayAgostini]

Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).

The scriptures sometimes refer to hell as outer darkness.

(Emphasis added)

That's a hell, in Mormon doctrine, reserved for a special class of people, "a few":

Doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Mormonism, refers to Sons of Perdition as those few souls who have been born on this earth who "have been made partakers" of God's power, yet "suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy" God by denying the Holy Spirit after having received it, denying the Only Begotten Son and "put him to an open shame." They openly and knowingly fight against God and Christ, having sided with Satan even though they had once tasted of full gospel knowledge by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Thus, as punishment they are "doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;" (Doctrine and Covenants 76:30-49) their torment and anguish cannot be comprehended by mortal persons. This eternal torment is called hell, or Outer Darkness.

All other persons, except these who commit the "sin against the Holy Ghost," will inherit a kingdom of glory.

There are those who fear that they have committed the "unpardonable sin," because they have not been faithful members of the Church. It must be emphasized that the witness described means that the person has had the heavens opened unto him and has personally seen, and even spoken with, the Savior, and then has turned against Him, bringing him to open shame. Cain is a Son of Perdition. He had a sure witness of the Lord and willfully chose to follow Satan instead.

Sons of Perdition.

There also seems to be an "escape clause" for those who repent before the millennium has ended:

Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium.

(Emphasis added)

Also from the Book of Mormon:

33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Ne. 26:33)

[_RayAgostini]

Obviously the story isn't true.

The supernatural parts.

Do you think a FA-18 flying over the Nile in Moses' time would be considered "supernatural"? Or how about a computer used in the first century?

Arthur C. Clarke's "three laws":

Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Clarke's Second Law: "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Science and technology have changed our world more in the past century than it changed in the previous hundred centuries. It took 10,000 years to get from the cart to the airplane, but only 66 years to get from powered flight to a lunar landing. Moore's Law of computer power doubling every eighteen months continues unabated and is now down to about a year. Ray Kurzweil, in The Age of Spiritual Machines, calculates that there have been thirty-two doublings since World War II, and that the Singularity point may be upon us as early as 2030. The Singularity (as in the center of a black hole where matter is so dense that its gravity is infinite) is the point at which total computational power will rise to levels that are so far beyond anything that we can imagine that they will appear near infinite and thus, relatively speaking, be indistinguishable from omniscience (note the suffix!). When this happens the world will change more in a decade than it did in the previous thousand decades. Extrapolate that out a hundred thousand years, or a million years (an eye blink on an evolutionary time scale and thus a realistic estimate of how far advanced ETI will be, unless we happen to be the first space-faring species, which is unlikely), and we get a gut-wrenching, mind-warping feel for just how godlike these creatures would seem.....Although science has not even remotely destroyed religion, Shermer's Last Law predicts that the relationship between the two will be profoundly effected by contact with ETI.

"Shermer's Last Law: Any sufficiently advanced Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence is indistinguishable from God "

Shermer and Dawkins have been fooling the public for so long about what they really believe, or what they can potentially believe, it's just not funny. They would just prefer to see a "natural God", one who evolved to gain enormous power, but was nevertheless a product of evolution.

[_Darth J]

Ray---

Are you purporting to rebut what I quoted about the LDS understanding of what "hell" is?

Do you think a FA-18 flying over the Nile in Moses' time would be considered "supernatural"? Or how about a computer used in the first century?

Arthur C. Clarke's "three laws":

Clarke's First Law: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Clarke's Second Law: "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

Clarke's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Those would not be supernatural. They would be anachronisms. It is not a matter of sufficiently advance technology being indistinguishable from magic, but that the technology did not exist at that time.

It's not a good analogy. I don't know of anyone who believes we have a spirit/soul/consciousness that survives death who thinks that this process happens because of technology. It's not generally believed that a machine makes your spirit persist in the next life.