DCP's puff pieces now include supernatural tall tales

[_RayAgostini]

Ray---

Are you purporting to rebut what I quoted about the LDS understanding of what "hell" is?

You seemed to engage in some "broad" definitions, in my view suggesting that more people are "going to hell" than is recorded in Mormon scripture. I, on the other hand, would think that a person could be redeemed from hell and torment within minutes (not years), once they realise where they've gone wrong in life. And D&C 19 seems to support this.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

NDEs also support this, but I know you don't believe in them.

Those would not be supernatural. They would be anachronisms. It is not a matter of sufficiently advance technology being indistinguishable from magic, but that the technology did not exist at that time.

It's not a good analogy. I don't know of anyone who believes we have a spirit/soul/consciousness that survives death who thinks that this process happens because of technology. It's not generally believed that a machine makes your spirit persist in the next life.

Anachronisms have nothing to do with it. I was merely pointing out that what one generation considers "supernatural", another, later and more modern generation, would consider "normal". What we now consider "supernatural", could in the 25th century, or even much earlier, be considered as normal.

Computers that read minds are being developed by Intel.

[_Darth J]

Ray---

Are you purporting to rebut what I quoted about the LDS understanding of what "hell" is?

You seemed to engage in some "broad" definitions, in my view suggesting that more people are "going to hell" than is recorded in Mormon scripture. I, on the other hand, would think that a person could be redeemed from hell and torment within minutes (not years), once they realise where they've gone wrong in life. And D&C 19 seems to support this.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

Remember how I quoted the Church's website saying that the first definition of hell is equivalent to spirit prison?

NDEs also support this, but I know you don't believe in them.

You know that, do you?

I think there is a God, and I think he has a particular relationship with the human race. I hope there is life after death. I can't offer a rational explanation right now for why I think those things. I think that Jesus of Nazareth has a unique place in humanity, and I still think he in some way bridged the gap between humanity and God---although I feel that he died for "sin" in the general sense of mankind's separation from God, not for "sins." viewtopic.php?f=1&p=335724

My dad also had a near-death experience. When he was a boy (a boy old enough to remember this kind of thing), he choked on a jawbreaker and was pronounced dead at the hospital. He found himself in a white place where people were walking around and looking at him like he wasn't supposed to be there (i.e., it wasn't his time to die). And then suddenly he was back in his body at the hospital. My dad no longer believes that the LDS Church is true, but he still says he really had that experience (like Uncle Dale's dad, my dad doesn't like to talk very much about what happened to him). viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16081&start=42

One of the reasons I believe in an afterlife is because I know somebody who had a near-death experience. Actually, it wasn't "near" death; he was pronounced dead at the hospital. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15258&start=21

Those would not be supernatural. They would be anachronisms. It is not a matter of sufficiently advance technology being indistinguishable from magic, but that the technology did not exist at that time.

It's not a good analogy. I don't know of anyone who believes we have a spirit/soul/consciousness that survives death who thinks that this process happens because of technology. It's not generally believed that a machine makes your spirit persist in the next life.

Anachronisms have nothing to do with it. I was merely pointing out that what one generation considers "supernatural", another, later and more modern generation, would consider "normal". What we now consider "supernatural", could in the 25th century, or even much earlier, be considered as normal.

Again, Ray, I very much doubt that people who believe in a soul/spirit/whatever that transcends physical death tend to think that it is a technological process that makes this happen.

Or are you implying that a jet fighter can fly because angels are holding it up?

Computers that read minds are being developed by Intel.

That is technology that actually exists in our time. Are you implying that we retain a conscience essence after we die because our minds are uploaded into a computer?

[_EAllusion]

It's not a good analogy. I don't know of anyone who believes we have a spirit/soul/consciousness that survives death who thinks that this process happens because of technology. It's not generally believed that a machine makes your spirit persist in the next life.

The idea is that a piece of technology that sufficiently subverts our understanding of how the natural world works and has a causal explanation complex enough to be beyond comprehension is indistinguishable from magic. It is in principle possible for such things to exist. Ghosts could be real, even the byproduct of some heretofore unknown alien technology, and essentially be a mysterious force. The problem here is that there is every reason to think belief in ghosts is not justified and stories of them are better explained in terms of human failings. The issue I'd take with Ray's quote is that nearly every crackpot theorist trots this out to pimp their crackpot ideas. That wonderfully mysterious things are possible does not validate your quirky ideas by that mere fact.

[_Darth J]

It's not a good analogy. I don't know of anyone who believes we have a spirit/soul/consciousness that survives death who thinks that this process happens because of technology. It's not generally believed that a machine makes your spirit persist in the next life.

The idea is that a piece of technology that sufficiently subverts our understanding of how the natural world works and has a causal explanation complex enough to be beyond comprehension is indistinguishable from magic. It is in principle possible for such things to exist. Ghosts could be real, even the byproduct of some heretofore unknown alien technology, and essentially be a mysterious force. The problem here is that there is every reason to think belief in ghosts is not justified and stories of them are better explained in terms of human failings. The issue I'd take with Ray's quote is that nearly every crackpot theorist trots this out to pimp their crackpot ideas. That wonderfully mysterious things are possible does not validate your quirky ideas by that mere fact.

That's exactly right. It is a non sequitur that "things that we used to think were impossible no longer are because of technology, therefore my supernatural claims are true." What I'm saying is that not only is it a non sequitur, it is an irrelevant non sequitur. Among people who believe in ghosts and/or an afterlife, how many of them are hypothesizing that there is some unknown, advanced technology behind it?

[_RayAgostini]

You know that, do you?

Not necessarily. I'm only assuming, judging by your posts. For all I know you could be a B.H. Roberts playing "devil's advocate". I've seen fervent critics here later say that they are actually practicing and believing Mormons. One was even called as a bishop! lol.

I think there is a God, and I think he has a particular relationship with the human race. I hope there is life after death. I can't offer a rational explanation right now for why I think those things. I think that Jesus of Nazareth has a unique place in humanity, and I still think he in some way bridged the gap between humanity and God---although I feel that he died for "sin" in the general sense of mankind's separation from God, not for "sins." viewtopic.php?f=1&p=335724

My dad also had a near-death experience. When he was a boy (a boy old enough to remember this kind of thing), he choked on a jawbreaker and was pronounced dead at the hospital. He found himself in a white place where people were walking around and looking at him like he wasn't supposed to be there (i.e., it wasn't his time to die). And then suddenly he was back in his body at the hospital. My dad no longer believes that the LDS Church is true, but he still says he really had that experience (like Uncle Dale's dad, my dad doesn't like to talk very much about what happened to him).

Most Mormons who have NDEs tend to take a much more liberal view of Mormonism. That is a fact. And they tend to shun dogma, no matter what religion "NDERs" belong to. Perhaps they come to realise the meaning of 1st Corinthians 13? That visions, revelations, miracles, prophecy, and being in the "right church" won't "save them"? That even if they gave their body to be burnt for what they believe, it's not going to make a difference if they don't have charity/love?

Again, Ray, I very much doubt that people who believe in a soul/spirit/whatever that transcends physical death tend to think that it is a technological process that makes this happen.

Or are you implying that a jet fighter can fly because angels are holding it up?

I'm frankly amazed at how you misunderstand my analogies. Imagine God being a person 2 million years in advance of us. Imagine it. Just for a moment. Do you think that "walking on water", or reading minds, or even raising the dead, would be something "supernatural" with this being?

That is technology that actually exists in our time. Are you implying that we retain a conscience essence after we die because our minds are uploaded into a computer?

Not at all. I'm simply saying that our current and developing technology, which was not around when the Wright brothers first flew (and when it was unthinkable that the moon was within reach), is an indicator of what might be possible for civilisations millions of years in advance of us. They could well be our "God". Fortunately, I believe, they care about us, and do not will do destroy us. If they did, we wouldn't last very long. And I believe this all ties into "religion".

[_RayAgostini]

It's not a good analogy. I don't know of anyone who believes we have a spirit/soul/consciousness that survives death who thinks that this process happens because of technology. It's not generally believed that a machine makes your spirit persist in the next life. The idea is that a piece of technology that sufficiently subverts our understanding of how the natural world works and has a causal explanation complex enough to be beyond comprehension is indistinguishable from magic. It is in principle possible for such things to exist. Ghosts could be real, even the byproduct of some heretofore unknown alien technology, and essentially be a mysterious force. The problem here is that there is every reason to think belief in ghosts is not justified and stories of them are better explained in terms of human failings. The issue I'd take with Ray's quote is that nearly every crackpot theorist trots this out to pimp their crackpot ideas. That wonderfully mysterious things are possible does not validate your quirky ideas by that mere fact.

I'd not expect any less from you, EA. This has been your mantra for too many years to count. Just know that what you believe, and which you claim to "know scientifically", could be in the dustbin tomorrow. That's how science works.

Future science: the next 10 years.

[_Darth J]

Ray, is there any meaningful distinction a reasonable person might infer from your posts between open-mindedness and pious gullibility?

[_RayAgostini]

Ray, is there any meaningful distinction a reasonable person might infer from your posts between open-mindedness and pious gullibility?

I'm pious, I guess, but I also possess a logical mind. If I didn't, I'd never have left the Church. I "reasoned" my way out of the Church, and I had many happy, care-free, and freedom-loving, wonderful times, totally endeared to memory, to live on even in my last years on earth. I wouldn't trade those times for "a thousand worlds". But I'm not saying my way, was the "right way", and I believe Mormons can have a "higher vision", and feel as much fulfilled. There's no need for any of us to denigrate their vision, their hopes, or their beliefs. They might be right, after all, but that won't make any difference to the choices I made. I can live with that, because "I was me", lol. I was true to myself, and what I really wanted from life, and it was not to be doing "home-teaching" every week.

As my late and great mother always said, "each man to his own order". And I think that means not denigrating what others believe, and which path they choose to try to find happiness.

[_aussieguy55]

There is a theologian/philosopher at Fuller Seminary who has written on dualism, she argues against it theologically - There is no scriptural evidence for it. Bodies and Souls, or Spirited Bodies? (2006).

[_EAllusion]

Future science: the next 10 years.

Right, therefore any crazy idea anyone believes is equally justified as what is most reasonable to cautiously think today. Good call. That's why I think vaccines cause autism. Not because I have any good basis for thinking this - but hey - science could be different 10 years from now!