Family dies holding hands, praying

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_Hoops
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

Panopticon wrote:Hoops pointed to the recent story of someone's house surviving as an example of God's Providence.

I thought I had pointed out that the prayerful family survived but the house did not. And it was in Indiana.
_harmony
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _harmony »

Panopticon wrote:The bottom line is that people ascribe "miracles" to God that are fully explainable by chance.


And Mother Nature is vicious and no respector of persons. If you live in Tornado Alley or the bottom of a bowl right next to the sea or right next to a steaming mountain or on the bank of a river than is downstream from a range of mountains that tend to get lots of snow, or... well, you get the idea... chances are Mother Nature is going to visit you and it's not going to be pretty.

Don't be begging to be saved or to save your children from the consequences of your own choices. God didn't make you live there. I choose to live right next door to a nuclear power plant. When it explodes, I won't be praying for God to spare me. I'll be accepting the consequences of my decision.

(now... let the flaming begin...)
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Buffalo
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Buffalo »

harmony wrote:
Panopticon wrote:The bottom line is that people ascribe "miracles" to God that are fully explainable by chance.


And Mother Nature is vicious and no respector of persons. If you live in Tornado Alley or the bottom of a bowl right next to the sea or right next to a steaming mountain or on the bank of a river than is downstream from a range of mountains that tend to get lots of snow, or... well, you get the idea... chances are Mother Nature is going to visit you and it's not going to be pretty.

Don't be begging to be saved or to save your children from the consequences of your own choices. God didn't make you live there. I choose to live right next door to a nuclear power plant. When it explodes, I won't be praying for God to spare me. I'll be accepting the consequences of my decision.

(now... let the flaming begin...)


Right, because there is no God. Great point!
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I am simply asking things which I have questioned and am looking to see who has good answers. Honestly I have not found any good answers yet in this thread.


When it comes to things like this, I haven't seen many good answers anywhere (This awesome thread included)


Ok. But doesn't it trouble you that there really are no good answers? It does me.

Yes it is. But according to the Bible, and to the Christian faith, God did not create it that way nor did he intend it that way.


That is my belief.


Very good. We are on the same page then.

It is that way because two people, initially failed to obey one, just one really, of God's commands.


"Just one" :smile:


Blaming the woman are you? :mrgreen:

You and I and everyone else gets to suffer enormously because of that.


As I see it, "you and I and everyone else" are sinners too. We are all broken and disobedient to the Creator. We sin, judge, condemn, question, etc, etc (This very thread seems to illustate this quite nicely, in my opinion)


Sure we are all sinners and I never said we were not. And as noted maybe none of us could live perfectly in paradise so Adam and Eve's replacement may have done the same thing. But my point is, you and I were born into a fallen world through no fault of our own. Now you, being Catholic, may believe in original sin. I don't however.

To top it off he may have even known about this ahead of time. If he foreknew his plan was going to fail and not only were so many humans he would create going to suffer in this life, many would not have faith in Jesus (who was plan b apparently) and thus they would suffer in Hell forever. One wonders why he just didn't scrap the whole plan and come up with something different.


I guess you can offer advice for what God should have done, how God should have done it, or suggest why you don't agree with God. As a believer, I will not.


So is blind faith the only way to reconcile seemingly irreconcilable issues? I am not telling God what to do? I am just wondering about the reasonableness of what Christianity believes about such things and trying to decide if such beliefs are rational as well as true.

Yes but only because Adam and Eve screwed up. Right? Otherwise we may be in paradise now.

I would suggest that (less one named Jesus) we have all "screwed up" mightily.


of course.
_Panopticon
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Panopticon »

Hoops wrote:
Panopticon wrote:Hoops pointed to the recent story of someone's house surviving as an example of God's Providence.

I thought I had pointed out that the prayerful family survived but the house did not. And it was in Indiana.


The details are wrong, but the point is the same.

I could run the same numbers for people who survive tornadoes on a direct hit. I'm sure there are respectable odds someone would survive, depending on the construction of the home.

So-called miracles are predictable and foreseeable given the odds.

If someone does happen to survive despite the odds, you have this problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrX__ILD ... frrFGNE%3D
http://www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up
_Hoops
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

Panopticon wrote:The details are wrong, but the point is the same.

I could run the same numbers for people who survive tornadoes on a direct hit. I'm sure there are respectable odds someone would survive, depending on the construction of the home.

So-called miracles are predictable and foreseeable given the odds.

If someone does happen to survive despite the odds, you have this problem:


What kind of odds does an event have to beat for you to consider it a miracle?
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
And Mother Nature is vicious and no respector of persons. If you live in Tornado Alley or the bottom of a bowl right next to the sea or right next to a steaming mountain or on the bank of a river than is downstream from a range of mountains that tend to get lots of snow, or... well, you get the idea... chances are Mother Nature is going to visit you and it's not going to be pretty.


Just about every where you live there is something from nature that can kill you. Though I agree, odds are higher in some locals than other.

Don't be begging to be saved or to save your children from the consequences of your own choices. God didn't make you live there. I choose to live right next door to a nuclear power plant. When it explodes, I won't be praying for God to spare me. I'll be accepting the consequences of my decision.

(now... let the flaming begin...)



Burn baby burn! :lol:
_BartBurk
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _BartBurk »

God created a world with weather conditions that sometimes cause injury and death. Because I am not God, I'm not in a position to say whether or not God could have created an alternative world that would have been better. My parents both died at a relatively young age from cancer. Could God have created a world which didn't have cancer and accomplished what God alone knows needs to be accomplished for our eternal happiness? Could God have created a world without weather disasters which would have accomplished what God alone knows needs to be accomplished for our eternal happiness? I'm not really in the best position to judge God, but I do believe that God writes straight with crooked lines and sees beyond our limited vision.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hi again, Jason
Jason Bourne wrote:
Ok. But doesn't it trouble you that there really are no good answers? It does me.


I wouldn't say it "troubles" me. Clearly, there are many questions I would like an anwer to (This tornado issue being a mere one of many), but I don't insist or demand on an explanation from the Creator, as I am surely just a mere creation. (Perhaps someday I/we will have these answers. :smile: )

Very good. We are on the same page then.


Same book, maybe? Same page? I am not nearly as certain.

Blaming the woman are you? :mrgreen:


Facts are facts! :lol:

Sure we are all sinners and I never said we were not. And as noted maybe none of us could live perfectly in paradise so Adam and Eve's replacement may have done the same thing. But my point is, you and I were born into a fallen world through no fault of our own.


Jason, I am not sure what you are suggesting here. We (all human beings) are sinners. We all have equal "blame". We are all forgiven and washed clean of this sin from (and only from) the blood of Christ. Christ stood in our place, willingly, and provided the ultimate sacrifice for us all.

Now you, being Catholic, may believe in original sin. I don't however.


Okay, I have no problem allowing you to believe whatever you would like to believe (after all, I hang out at a heavily flavored atheist board), but I would suggest that original sin is deeply rooted in Sacred Scripture, believed by the great majority of people who call themselves Christian, and is entirely and exactly why we have a world that is fallen, decaying, broken, and that certain death is in all of our future.

So is blind faith the only way to reconcile seemingly irreconcilable issues?


Huh?

I am not telling God what to do?


Okay, it is my opinion that you are (like many, many others have, do, and will continue to do) questioning, judging, condemning, and demanding answers of the Creator while being a mere creation.

as I am just wondering about the reasonableness of what Christianity believes about such things and trying to decide if such beliefs are rational as well as true.


I would suggest that you might want to consider asking Christians what Christians believe, but that's just my view.

As far as whether such beliefs are rational and true, all I can offer you there is that I happen to find them both utterly rational and indeed true.


of course.


There is still hope for you. :smile:

I appreciate the dialouge, friend.
Peace,
Ceeboo
_BartBurk
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _BartBurk »

harmony wrote:
Panopticon wrote:The bottom line is that people ascribe "miracles" to God that are fully explainable by chance.


And Mother Nature is vicious and no respector of persons. If you live in Tornado Alley or the bottom of a bowl right next to the sea or right next to a steaming mountain or on the bank of a river than is downstream from a range of mountains that tend to get lots of snow, or... well, you get the idea... chances are Mother Nature is going to visit you and it's not going to be pretty.

Don't be begging to be saved or to save your children from the consequences of your own choices. God didn't make you live there. I choose to live right next door to a nuclear power plant. When it explodes, I won't be praying for God to spare me. I'll be accepting the consequences of my decision.

(now... let the flaming begin...)


Reality is you have to live somewhere, and I don't know anywhere on the entire planet where there is absolutely no risk from natural disasters. Most of the U.S. has tornadoes unless you live out West and then you contend with earthquakes, volcanoes and rattlesnakes among other things. No cougars will attack me in the Midwest though a coyote might snatch one of our pets.
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