Watered Down Mormonism?

[_Gadianton]

If you are going to discuss Mormonism, you should know something about it. I really don't have patience for those that don't understand things like this since I can sit down with an informed Mormon and have a very good discussion about it

You are right to see the problem of Jesus becoming more important than his father and trying to find a way out of the implications that begin with man becoming God yet Jesus being perfect as a man, but no one but you in the church believes what you've stated here, except you...if you indeed are really an active member.

[_Tobin]

If you are going to discuss Mormonism, you should know something about it. I really don't have patience for those that don't understand things like this since I can sit down with an informed Mormon and have a very good discussion about it

You are right to see the problem of Jesus becoming more important than his father and trying to find a way out of the implications that begin with man becoming God yet Jesus being perfect as a man, but no one but you in the church believes what you've stated here, except you...if you indeed are really an active member.

It's dawning on them slowly. I've heard many more claim that GF was a mortal creature like Jesus. It is true that there are Mormons that don't appreciate the true role of Celestial beings in the universe and what differences there are between us and God. However, the concept of a Mormon God and savior that I described is certainly a lot more plausible in a universe with billions upon billions of inhabited worlds instead of one in which Christ is uniquely the only being that was (or will ever be) a savior. Christianity has no answer for this. Mormonism does if understood properly.

[_Gadianton]

as I thought, Tobin, no reference frame necessary, I clearly explained in my first post how you came to believe what you do about this matter, even though where you arrived at is well beyond unorthodox.

Mormons believe that HF is an exalted man and that could only happen by a savior. Many Mormons, offended by the thought HF could just be an exalted Janitor while Christ was a God in his "mortality" who died for the sins of billions of planets, make the leap that HF could have been the Christ for his world and now they're even Steven. But what about HF's father? was he a janitor? So now you've got to fix the problem all the way back. But this paints TBM's into a corner, because there must still be an eternity of planets out there created by exalted janitors and it begins to seem like we're pushing our luck with odds and special considerations that we on earth are the most recent of a special line of planets where every HF was also a Christ. There is no good doctrinal answer for this problem, it just shows the stupidity of TBM reasoning.

Your way out is to get rid of janitor Gods and make the HF-Christ-HF-Christ repeating decimal one class of beings and allow exalted Janitors to be well-compensated serfs. But this is heresy, as the Church teaches that exalted men like Abraham are Gods who have now gone on to create worlds without end. But their worlds will never be as special as ours, as Abraham was not a Christ on his world, and that's an untidy reality that must be lived with for now.

There are several apologists who believe similar to what you do, but for totally different reasons. I might expound on this later.

[_Tobin]

as I thought, Tobin, no reference frame necessary, I clearly explained in my first post how you came to believe what you do about this matter, even though where you arrived at is well beyond unorthodox.

Mormons believe that HF is an exalted man and that could only happen by a savior. Many Mormons, offended by the thought HF could just be an exalted Janitor while Christ was a God in his "mortality" who died for the sins of billions of planets, make the leap that HF could have been the Christ for his world and now they're even Steven. But what about HF's father? was he a janitor? So now you've got to fix the problem all the way back. But this paints TBM's into a corner, because there must still be an eternity of planets out there created by exalted janitors and it begins to seem like we're pushing our luck with odds and special considerations that we on earth are the most recent of a special line of planets where every HF was also a Christ. There is no good doctrinal answer for this problem, it just shows the stupidity of TBM reasoning.

Your way out is to get rid of janitor Gods and make the HF-Christ-HF-Christ repeating decimal one class of beings and allow exalted Janitors to be well-compensated serfs. But this is heresy, as the Church teaches that exalted men like Abraham are Gods who have now gone on to create worlds without end. But their worlds will never be as special as ours, as Abraham was not a Christ on his world, and that's an untidy reality that must be lived with for now.

There are several apologists who believe similar to what you do, but for totally different reasons. I might expound on this later.

The official Church position gets many things wrong; blacks and the priesthood; polygamy; women and the priesthood; and so on. They are mistaken on this as well and will eventually come around and recognize that man is not God; nor can we ever be God. Mormons should dispose of such ridiculous notions and learn to rely on God instead of trying to be God. I think they'd have less stress, be a little kinder and understanding of others, and they might find people are not so resistant to their beliefs.

[_consiglieri]

They are mistaken on this as well and will eventually come around and recognize that man is not God; nor can we ever be God.

I appreciate all the thought you have put into this idea, Tobin. My reservation stems from the fact that I think the greatest single idea put forward by Joseph Smith is that God and Man are of the same species, or to use a phrase of Joseph's, of the same "patriarchal order."

Although I am not one to say you are wrong in your theological speculations, it does seem to me that, though novel, you are nevertheless watering down Mormonism.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Jason Bourne]

Actually, the idea that Mormons can become God is blasphemy and a misconception that only some Mormons (and those outside the church) have.

Man is quite unlike God. We are unable to save ourselves and lack the necessary intelligence. God is always perfect. God never sins. This is not true of man and so we can never be God due to that.

What Joseph Smith taught was God that Father was a man like Christ, who is also God. This is where the misconception comes from. We are not Christ or capable of being Christ. We can be saved and share in what God has and become gods, but we will never be able to be God.

As far as the gods having their own individual planet, that is also false. The gods will inherit the earth and this will be a Celestial sphere.

I understand that one can interpret the teachings in the KFD to say that God was a man like Jesus was but it can be read other ways as well. And Smith certainly taught that we can become gods.

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.

So while Smith says he dwelt on an earth same as Jesus he also says God was not God from all eternities. That is different than we view Jesus because we believe Jesus was God before he came to this world.

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the Trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power— to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

Above we see Joseph Smith stating simply that we also have got to learn to become gods. He does not qualify it. And by the way no LDS person ever believed we would be God like you say above. Gods that would do what God does, yes. Gods that would create and people worlds was certainly taught. This is how God and Christ move up the chain so to speak. Whether this is blasphemy or not is another thing. But it was taught by the church and its prophets and the Newsroom link I gave waters it down.

[_Jason Bourne]

The LDS Newsroom is not really new and has always been official as long as the Church has published it.

Sure. It seem to issue more official doctrine these days than President Monson does.

Say rather that some on the MDD are just now coming around to the fact that official doctrine is identified by official publication.

I have told you before that I agree with you. When I was an apologist and I back peddled from the Ensign of manuals, LIKE MOST APOLOGISTS do, I felt disingenuous. But I expect you to account for official published doctrine even that from the 19th century that was published in the Deseret News and Millennial Star, both organs of the Church for that era.

Probably because they read something between the lines that they liked in a recent publication but wasn't actually there as we have come to find out, but it's a start. These people are 30-40 years behind curve when it comes to doctrine and the Church has long moved without them. Give them a break; they are experiencing shock and the euphoric freedom having access to the doctrine brings. It's common sense really. The Church is not going to allow or allow for long something to be published that it feels is in error.

Give them a break; they are experiencing shock and the euphoric freedom having access to the doctrine brings. It's common sense really. The Church is not going to allow or allow for long something to be published that it feels is in error. Are you saying what I linked to contains errors?

Thank you GBH we don't know much about that. What happened to God being man and we learning to become a god just like our God did? Where is that?

How does this conflict with other published doctrine that God was once a mortal man?

Oh please. We don't know much about that? Becoming a god is wishful thinking? Then later to the Church he says don't worry I know the doctrine?

Well BY and crew certainly believed this and taught is. So did McConkie and JFS. So did all my seminary teachers. Guess they were wrong.

Was it published in any doctrinal work? We know the JoD is not a doctrinal work nor has it been.

I would have to do some leg work. Also I really don't see how you can call the JoD not official when the leaders themselves called it a standard work of the church.

I will let the women here opine on this.

No conflicts or changes here either.

Women do not lead in the Church. To say they do is disingenuous. Every leadership position a woman has is controlled by men.

So was Joseph Smith wrong? What then was Adam-ondi-Ahman?

The doctrine places the Garden in a county If I recall correctly. No word on the extent. It is also true that such knowledge is not necessary to salvation. Again, no conflict.

The Church is back peddling from this and down playing it. Zion being in Jackson County and that place being the garden of eden is in the D&C.

Milk before meat is all this FAQ is. Just because you don't see a certain detail here doesn't mean it's been abandoned.

Ah the old milk/meat deal. So to the public we down play things because why? I will tell you. They will think Mormonism is vary odd and strange otherwise and Newsroom is afraid to be honest.

[_Jason Bourne]

The official Church position gets many things wrong; blacks and the priesthood; polygamy; women and the priesthood; and so on. They are mistaken on this as well and will eventually come around and recognize that man is not God; nor can we ever be God. Mormons should dispose of such ridiculous notions and learn to rely on God instead of trying to be God. I think they'd have less stress, be a little kinder and understanding of others, and they might find people are not so resistant to their beliefs.

If the official position is so wrong then what good are prophets? And why should anyone trust that you have it right? And if the Church teaches it incorrectly and members believe it what happens to the members? Sort of like BY getting so much wrong-Adam is God, Blood Atonement, infinite regression of gods, polygamy required to be exalted, this planet created from other ones, Go still gaining knowledge, we getting our own planet... but this 19th century Mormon sure believed all this.

[_Gadianton]

The official Church position gets many things wrong; blacks and the priesthood; polygamy; women and the priesthood; and so on. They are mistaken on this as well and will eventually come around and recognize that man is not God; nor can we ever be God. Mormons should dispose of such ridiculous notions and learn to rely on God instead of trying to be God. I think they'd have less stress, be a little kinder and understanding of others, and they might find people are not so resistant to their beliefs

.

That's all fine and good, Tobin. But, earlier you said - referring to DarthJ I think,

If you are going to discuss Mormonism, you should know something about it. I really don't have patience for those that don't understand things like this since I can sit down with an informed Mormon and have a very good discussion about it. It is just too annoying to have to explain all the issues to the uninitiated in a forum like this

So what you're saying is that you can't discuss Mormonism with DarthJ because he is unaware of basics like, Polygamy was a mistake and women are entitled to the priesthood, matters typical Mormons you meet at church, the initiated, are fully conversant with?

[_sock puppet]

... from the Prophet Seer and Newsroom, ...

I haven't been paying close enough attention lately to know who coined this term, but I find it hilarious in how precisely it captures 21st Century Mormonism.

For those of you TBM's that want to climb the bureaucratic ladder to a GA position before you die, best you get a college degree in public relations.