huckelberry wrote:I do not know of any biblical explanation of hell but there are several strong statements of condemnation such as this that people have used as starting points for their imagination. I certainly do not have any secret inside information. You specified "unbarable agony for eternity". I see no reason to believe that. For Judas it might mean he will off and hang himself.
Let's see if I can make this simple. Do you believe that God has the power to cause Judas Iscariot to cease to exist? And if you do, do you believe that God will cause Judas to cease to exist?
Kevinsim, you ask. "Let's see if I can make this simple. Do you believe that God has the power to cause Judas Iscariot to cease to exist?" me quite likely " And if you do, do you believe that God will cause Judas to cease to exist?"
me, I think that is possible but on the other hand he may be in heaven before you and I. My post above left open the possiblity of some sort of seperated existence in the land of murders cheats and abusers.
huckelberry wrote:I think that is possible but on the other hand he may be in heaven before you and I.
If Judas had never been born, then he certainly would have never ended up in heaven. By saying "it had been good for that man if he had not been born," Jesus was clearly saying that Judas' existence wasn't doing Judas any good. Why then would a good God let Judas go on existing? You said it was "likely" that God has the power to cause Judas to cease to exist. After hanging himself Judas was clearly not doing anyone any good by going on existing. Why then doesn't God cause Judas to cease to exist?
huckelberry wrote:I think that is possible but on the other hand he may be in heaven before you and I.
If Judas had never been born, then he certainly would have never ended up in heaven. By saying "it had been good for that man if he had not been born," Jesus was clearly saying that Judas' existence wasn't doing Judas any good. Why then would a good God let Judas go on existing? You said it was "likely" that God has the power to cause Judas to cease to exist. After hanging himself Judas was clearly not doing anyone any good by going on existing. Why then doesn't God cause Judas to cease to exist?
He will. And all the Devils soon enough. That is the second death. When all the gifts of God are taken back and your intelligence returns to the mixed media of all light and truth from whence we came. There, individuality does not exist in a cognizant state. We can again be commanded to come forth to the appointment of independent existence. Then we shall exist again as independence cognizant beings. So has it ever been and why there are such good devils and Michael Jackson.
Nightlion wrote:He will. And all the Devils soon enough. That is the second death. When all the gifts of God are taken back and your intelligence returns to the mixed media of all light and truth from whence we came. There, individuality does not exist in a cognizant state. We can again be commanded to come forth to the appointment of independent existence. Then we shall exist again as independence cognizant beings.
Nightlion, we don't agree on everything, but I'm glad to find out that you have an adequately conscientious belief about the eternal fate of the enemies of God.
One of the main themes in The Case for Christ, that Strobel repeated three or four times in the book, had to do with the transformation of the apostles, from a discouraged and disorganized band of eleven men, into a highly effective missionary force that would start a ball rolling that would eventually spread to all the corners of the world. None of these men ever denied the truthfulness of their central claim, that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead and still lived; most of them went to their deaths affirming the resurrection, whereas Strobel and others have speculated that if they had denied the resurrection they probably could have lived somewhat normal lives.
Why, Strobel asked, would men undergo this transformation, unless it were the case that Jesus had risen from the dead, as they claimed? Why would so many of them risk death as a consequence of their proclamations, if those proclamations were in fact false?
Strobel, and some of his experts, came to the conclusion that the only possible motivation they could have had was if in fact the resurrection had occurred as they declared.
Now, don't get me wrong. I am in fact a devout Latter-day Saint. I firmly believe that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead, and that He lives today. But Strobel argues that belief from the historical record, and I in all honesty don't see how one can do that, can argue for the resurrection from the historical record. Perhaps I am better at playing the devil's advocate in this situation than Lee Strobel was.
First off, the argument from lack of an answer is inherently flawed. So what if I can't think of a better explanation than that Jesus rose from the dead. Does that mean nobody will ever think up a better explanation? Not at all.
But what about revenge as a motivator? Over the ages, perhaps from the very beginning of the human race, revenge has motivated humans to do extraordinary things.
The eleven apostles did flee from Gethsemane, assuming the New Testament record is correct. Of course they did. One cut off a servant's ear, but Jesus put an end to that act of violence in a hurry, and what did they have to do but flee in shock?
But when the shock wore off, when they realized that the Jewish hierarchy had managed to get their master killed, what did they think then? They loved Jesus, possibly more than any group of men ever loved any man that led them. Is it possible that they realized that the best way they could get sweet revenge on that hierarchy was to in fact raise Jesus from the dead, in appearance if not in actuality?
So the apostles go to the tomb. Who knows? Maybe they went with weapons with intent to kill the guards watching it. Instead they find the guards asleep, in accordance with what those guards at a later point claimed they were doing. The apostles lifted the body and buried it somewhere, somewhere that they were reasonably sure nobody would ever find it.
Strobel scoffs at the possibility that the guards may have been telling the truth about being asleep. But think about it for a moment. Strobel asks us to believe that God rose Jesus from the dead, and yet he finds it hard to believe a small group of guards could possibly fall asleep.
I'm not saying it's impossible to raise someone from the dead, but certainly it's extremely difficult. Nobody of that day could do it; heck, once someone's been dead a few hours even now technology doesn't really help us resucitate her/him. On the other hand it is completely possible to fall asleep; in fact in some cases people who are trying very hard to stay awake end up falling asleep, against their will. So why is it so much harder to believe the guards fell asleep than it is to believe that God rose someone from the dead?
With no way for the Jewish hierarchy to prove that Jesus hadn't risen from the dead, since they didn't know where the apostles had buried the body, the apostles were free to preach Jesus risen as much as they wanted. Their revenge was complete; Christianity rose until today it dwarfs the Jewish faith it grew out of. Of course the authorities of the day fought against the apostles and killed many of them. Of course the apostles knew that if they maintained their story some of them would end up dead. But the assertion that people will not die for a lie is simply false; I doubt there has ever been a period in Earth's history where people were not willing to die for revenge's sake, whether that involved dying for a lie or dying for the truth.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KevinSim wrote:Well, I do have two. I have given a lot of thought to the idea of some souls suffering unbearable agony from the point of their biological death for the rest of eternity. Does orthodox Christianity and/or the Bible teach that God is so omnipotent that He has the power to cause some souls to cease to exist, take them from existing to not existing, sort of the reverse of what orthodox Christians think God did when He created us, take us from not existing to existing? Does God have the power to completely annihilate us, so that there's no trace of us at all, no spirit, no thinking being, no anything?
And if God does have that power, the next question is, does orthodox Christianity believe and/or the Bible teach that some non-empty group of souls will spend an infinite amount of time, from their deaths going on for the rest of eternity, in unbearable agony?
Aristotle Smith, were you planning on answering these two questions?
So the apostles go to the tomb. Who knows? Maybe they went with weapons with intent to kill the guards watching it. Instead they find the guards asleep, in accordance with what those guards at a later point claimed they were doing. The apostles lifted the body and buried it somewhere, somewhere that they were reasonably sure nobody would ever find it.
How did they open the tomb and lift the body without the guards hearing a disturbance?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
huckelberry wrote:I think that is possible but on the other hand he may be in heaven before you and I.
If Judas had never been born, then he certainly would have never ended up in heaven. By saying "it had been good for that man if he had not been born," Jesus was clearly saying that Judas' existence wasn't doing Judas any good. Why then would a good God let Judas go on existing? You said it was "likely" that God has the power to cause Judas to cease to exist. After hanging himself Judas was clearly not doing anyone any good by going on existing. Why then doesn't God cause Judas to cease to exist?
I suppose to be clearer I might specify that the possiblity I mentioned which you quote is not one I think of as likely. It is an unlikely exaggration of the possiblity all or substantially close to all will be saved. That is a view I think more likely. But I am unconvinced by complete universalism. Evil is to my understanding dangerous. For the unsaved evil is a serious problem.I normally think evil will eventually terminate people seperated from the kingdom of God. I read the Biblical passages as referring to destruction. It is a long standing tradition to think of that as an unending process, hell. I am uncertain, I suspect Nightlions deep freeze image makes a lot more sense than unendurable pointless pain.
But after thinking of these well established alternatives I am bothered by diminsion I do not understand. How can people become worthless? I cannot imginge Judas as workthless. It is possible I have no clue as to the good or evil in Judas. Am I able to convict somebody of being uttlerly useless? Is God able to see a people of his createion as uttlerly useless? I am unsure.
I think there are several reasonable paths to doubt the stories of Jesus rising from the dead. The stories of Jesus rising from death are more believable if a person already has been convinced of Jesus being exceptional. The kind of arguments for belief Stobel mentions work only for people well within the circle of believing. I think that is just fine. Empty tomb was the very last thing about the Jesus story I came to believe. Hardly the first.
Others might see various way to be skeptical of the New Testament reports of Jesus return form death. A drugged but not dead Jesus is a possibity floated by people in the past. KevinSim's possible theory is a more likely but related theory. I would find a theory like Crossans as best for not believing. His view is that the disciples did not know where his dead body was taken. They later understood Jesus as spiritually with them. The story of resurrection grew up later seperated from the original disciples. That theory can vary on when the folklore about tombs and guards grew up. There are theories that view most of the Jesus stories as folklore though somewhere along the way those need to form a theory of what drives the start. KevinSims,your theory has the advantage of have motive to drive the events.I have seen more recent interest in the theory that the Jesus story started as myth understood by the original Christians as myth but later misunderstood. That theory has the advantage of providing a stronge motive an cause effect chain. I do not think it fits well with the written record.(even under skeptical analysis of that record.)