Family dies holding hands, praying

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_Buffalo
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Buffalo »

Hoops wrote:
Buffalo wrote:I didn't see a refutation anywhere in there. I suspect that, as is often the case, you aren't capable of offering anything more substantive than sarcasm. :smile:

I offered exactly what your post deserves.


You offered exactly what you were able to offer.

Jesus 1
Hoops 0
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Chap
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Chap »

Hoops wrote: - the question is why would miracles happen during the establishment of the church and not now. I have offered a reasonable explanation for that. What is the criticism of THAT position?


Let us recall that your date for the cessation of miracles after the establishment of the church was complete was c. AD 350.

The criticism of that position is that it is possible to document a continuous assumption by Christians long after that date that it was not only reasonable to continue to expect miracles, but that they had actually happened and were continuing to happen.

I gave a solidly evidenced argument that people of great intellectual power and sophistication such as Bede of Jarrow and Pope Gregory were taking miracles for granted two or three hundred years after the time when, according to Hoops, they ought to have realized that the miracle tap had been turned off for good. But they just didn't see things that way.

How is it that Hoops can be sure that she is right today and all those earlier Christians were wrong?

Also, would one not expect that if miracles really did happen earlier, but were turned off around AD 350, quite a lot of people would have noticed? I mean, that would have been quite a change. Some Christians (such as Chrysostom and Augustine of Hippo) certainly did remark that there seemed to be no more speaking with tongues - but can Hoops evidence a general agreement that 'the age of miracles is past?' That might be difficult, when one dissenter from that position (Gregory) was the acknowledged leader of Western Christendom at the time he made his belief in miracles explicit in writing to Augustine of Canterbury in AD 601 (see my post).
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Hoops
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

It would appear somebody did notice:



From: http://www.sfpulpit.com/about/



John Chrysostom (c. 344–407):

This whole place [speaking about 1 Corinthians 12] is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place. [1]

*****

Augustine (354–430):

In the earliest times, “the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues,” which they had not learned, “as the Spirit gave them utterance.” These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to shew that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away. [2]

*****

Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393–c. 466):

In former times those who accepted the divine preaching and who were baptized for their salvation were given visible signs of the grace of the Holy Spirit at work in them. Some spoke in tongues which they did not know and which nobody had taught them, while others performed miracles or prophesied. The Corinthians also did these things, but they did not use the gifts as they should have done. They were more interested in showing off than in using them for the edification of the church. . . . Even in our time grace is given to those who are deemed worthy of holy baptism, but it may not take the same form as it did in those days. [3]

*****

Martin Luther (1483–1546):

[Rather than acknowledging the availability of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, as the spiritual enthusiasts of his time did, Luther (in his Large Catechism) defined the Holy Spirit’s gifts as:]

· the holy Christian Church,
· the communion of saints,
· the forgiveness of sins,
· the resurrection of the body, and
· the life everlasting[Thus in the Large Catechism, he writes:]

Learn this article, then, as clearly as possible. If you are asked, What do you mean by the words, “I believe in the Holy Spirit”? you can answer, “I believe that the Holy Spirit makes me holy, as his name implies.” How does he do this? By what means? Answer: “Through the Christian church, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.” In the first place, he has a unique community in the world. It is the mother that begets and bears every Christian through the Word of God. The Holy Spirit reveals and preaches that Word, and by it he illumines and kindles hearts so that they grasp and accept it, cling to it, and persevere in it” [4]

[As The Encyclopedia of Religion concludes: “Both Luther and Calvin wrote that the age of miracles was over and that their occurrence should not be expected.”]

*****

John Calvin (1509–1564):

Though Christ does not expressly state whether he intends this gift [of miracles] to be temporary, or to remain perpetually in the Church, yet it is more probable that miracles were promised only for a time, in order to give lustre to the gospel while it was new or in a state of obscurity. [5]

“…the gift of healing, like the rest of the miracles, which the Lord willed to be brought forth for a time, has vanished away in order to make the preaching of the Gospel marvellous for ever.” [6]

*****

John Owen (1616–1683):

“Gifts which in their own nature exceed the whole power of all our faculties, that dispensation of the Spirit is long since ceased and where it is now pretended unto by any, it may justly be suspected as an enthusiastic delusion.” [7]

*****

Thomas Watson (c 1620–1686):

“Sure, there is as much need of ordination now as in Christ’s time and in the time of the apostles, there being then extraordinary gifts in the church which are now ceased.” [8]

*****

Matthew Henry (1662–1714):

What these gifts were is at large told us in the body of the chapter [1 Corinthians 12]; namely, extraordinary offices and powers, bestowed on ministers and Christians in the first ages, for conviction of unbelievers, and propagation of the gospel. [9]

The gift of tongues was one new product of the spirit of prophecy and given for a particular reason, that, the Jewish pale being taken down, all nations might be brought into the church. These and other gifts of prophecy, being a sign, have long since ceased and been laid aside, and we have no encouragement to expect the revival of them; but, on the contrary, are directed to call the scriptures the more sure word of prophecy, more sure than voices from heaven; and to them we are directed to take heed, to search them, and to hold them fast, 2 Peter 1:29. [10]

*****

Conyers Middleton (1683–1750):

We have no sufficient reason to believe, upon the authority of the primitive fathers, that any such powers were continued to the church, after the days of the Apostles. [11]

*****

John Gill (1697–1771):

[Commenting on 1 Corinthians 12:9 and 30:]

Now these gifts were bestowed in common, by the Spirit, on apostles, prophets, and pastors, or elders of the church, in those early times: the Alexandrian copy, and the Vulgate Latin version, read, “by one Spirit”. [12]

No; when these gifts were in being, all had them not. When anointing with oil, in order to heal the sick, was in use, it was only performed by the elders of the church, not by the common members of it, who were to be sent for by the sick on this occasion. [13]

*****

Jonathan Edwards (1703–1758):

In the days of his [Jesus’] flesh, his disciples had a measure of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, being enabled thus to teach and to work miracles. But after the resurrection and ascension, was the most full and remarkable effusion of the Spirit in his miraculous gifts that ever took place, beginning with the day of Pentecost, after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven. And in consequence of this, not only here and there an extraordinary person was endowed with these extraordinary gifts, but they were common in the church, and so continued during the lifetime of the apostles, or till the death of the last of them, even the apostle John, which took place about a hundred years from the birth of Christ; so that the first hundred years of the Christian era, or the first century, was the era of miracles. But soon after that, the canon of Scripture being completed when the apostle John had written the book of Revelation, which he wrote not long before his death, these miraculous gifts were no longer continued in the church. For there was now completed an established written revelation of the mind and will of God, wherein God had fully recorded a standing and all-sufficient rule for his church in all ages. And the Jewish church and nation being overthrown, and the Christian church and the last dispensation of the church of God being established, the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed, and therefore they ceased; for though they had been continued in the church for so many ages, yet then they failed, and God caused them to fail because there was no further occasion for them. And so was fulfilled the saying of the text, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” And now there seems to be an end to all such fruits of the Spirit as these, and we have no reason to expect them any more. [14]

Of the extraordinary gifts, they were given in order to the founding and establishing of the church in the world. But since the canon of Scriptures has been completed, and the Christian church fully founded and established, these extraordinary gifts have ceased. [15]

*****

George Whitefield (1714-1770):

[After being accused of practicing the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, said:]

I never did pretend to these extraordinary operations of working miracles, or speaking with tongues [since] the karismata, the miraculous gifts conferred on the primitive church . . . have long since ceased. [16]

*****

James Buchanan (1804-1870):

The miraculous gifts of the Spirit have long since been withdrawn. They were used for a temporary purpose. They were the scaffolding with God employed for the erection of a spiritual temple. When it was no longer needed the scaffolding was taken down, but the temple still stands, and is occupied by his indwelling Spirit; for, “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you” (I Cor. 3:16). [17]

*****

Robert L. Dabney (1820–1898):

After the early church had been established, the same necessity for supernatural signs now no longer existed, and God, Who is never wasteful in His expedients, withdrew them. . . . Miracles, if they became ordinary, would cease to be miracles, and would be referred by men to customary law. [18]

*****

Charles Spurgeon (1834–1892):

[The believers mentioned in the book of Hebrews] had attained the summit of piety. They had received “the powers of the world to come.” Not miraculous gifts, which are denied us in these days, but all those powers with which the Holy Ghost endows a Christian. And what are they? Why, there is the power of faith, which commands even the heavens themselves to rain, and they rain, or stops the bottles of heaven, that they rain not. There is the power of prayer, which puts a ladder between earth and heaven, and bids angels walk up and down, to convey our wants to God, and bring down blessings from above. There is the power with which God girds his servant when he speaks by inspiration, which enables him to instruct others, and lead them to Jesus; and whatever other power there may be—the power of holding communion with God, or the power of patient waiting for the Son of Man—they were possessed by these individuals. [19]

The works of the Holy Spirit which are at this time vouchsafed to the Church of God are every way as valuable as those earlier miraculous gifts which have departed from us. The work of the Holy Spirit, by which men are quickened from their death in sin, is not inferior to the power which made men speak with tongues. [20]

[Speaking of the office of the apostles,] an office which necessarily dies out, and properly so, because the miraculous power also is withdrawn. [21]

*****

George Smeaton (1814–1889):

The supernatural or extraordinary gifts were temporary, and intended to disappear when the Church should be founded and the inspired canon of Scripture closed; for they were an external proof of an internal inspiration. [22]

*****

Abraham Kuyper (1837–1920):

Many of the charismata, given to the apostolic church, are not of service to the church of the present day. [23]

*****

William G. T. Shedd (1820–1894):

The supernatural gifts of inspiration and miracles which the apostles possessed were not continued to their ministerial successors, because they were no longer necessary. All the doctrines of Christianity had been revealed to the apostles, and had been delivered to the church in a written form. There was no further need of an infallible inspiration. And the credentials and authority give to the first preachers of Christianity in miraculous acts, did not need continual repetition from age to age. One age of miracles well authenticated is sufficient to establish the divine origin of the gospel. In a human court, an indefinite series of witnesses is not required. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses,” the facts are established. The case once decided is not reopened. [24]

*****

Benjamin B. Warfield (1887–1921):

These gifts were not the possession of the primitive Christian as such; nor for that matter of the Apostolic Church or the Apostolic age for themselves; they were distinctively the authentication of the Apostles. They were part of the credentials of the Apostles as the authoritative agents of God in founding the church. Their function thus confined them to distinctively the Apostolic Church and they necessarily passed away with it. [25]

*****

Arthur W. Pink (1886–1952):

As there were offices extraordinary (apostles and prophets) at the beginning of our dispensation, so there were gifts extraordinary; and as successors were not appointed for the former, so a continuance was never intended for the latter. The gifts were dependent upon the officers. We no longer have the apostles with us and therefore the supernatural gifts (the communication of which was an essential part of “the signs of an apostle,” II Cor. 12:12) are absent.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Buffalo »

Maybe Hoops can explain why God was too busy to intervene here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17362643
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Drifting
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Drifting »

Buffalo wrote:Maybe Hoops can explain why God was too busy to intervene here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17362643


It's tragedies like this one that make me realise I can't be like God.

I couldn't sit by and let this happen. Not to the children who died and were injured, and not to their parents and families that have to now spend the rest of their earthly existence dealing with the unimaginable grief of this.

Maybe he was busy.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Hoops
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

It's tragedies like this one that make me realise I can't be like God.
That's a good first step. Congrats

I couldn't sit by and let this happen.
Then maybe you should tell us exactly when and where you would intervene and when and where you would not. Then outline the consequences of your action.

Maybe he was busy.
What a clever comment! I had never heard that one before!
_Chap
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Chap »

Hoops wrote:It would appear somebody did notice:



From: http://www.sfpulpit.com/about/

<copies website>



Sorry I have missed responding to this. I have been traveling, but will get back. Continuous prose, even if from elsewhere, deserves continuous prose in reply.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Chap »

Hoops wrote:...

Drifting wrote:Maybe he was busy.
What a clever comment! I had never heard that one before!


Yet again, I have this feeling that I read the Bible more than Hoops does. There is a really good precedent for saying that about deities who don't respond in times of need:

I Kings 18
22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.


What's sauce for the Baal is sauce for the Yahweh, no?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Panopticon
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Panopticon »

Hoops wrote:The position I am explaining is the reason why we don't see the kinds of miracles as described in the Bible and one which would have moved the tornado. The question is NOT whether or not the early church fathers should be believed more or less than the Biblical accounts. That's a different issue - one I'm willing to address, by the way. But the point remains. The question: why wasn't the family's prayer to be saved from the tornado answered?

I offered 1) that we, as human beings, are not prepared nor do we really want that kind of overt interference by God. Primarily because the consequences would be too dramatic.

2) that the purpose of miracles was to establish the authority of the apostles in order for them to develop scripture and establish the church. I think I'm on sound biblical ground here.

To add further: the purpose of miracles is NOT for God to become some sort of manager at Walmart where we can pick from a shelf what miracles we would like to happen that day. I'll freely grant that God certainly can do whatever He wishes. Assuming there is a God (a stipulation, that, it would seem, is necessary to explore this question) by definition He is morally capable to decide when to intervene and when not to. The obvious counter to that is that it would seem morally suspect for not intervening for the people in the tornado. I am offering that it would be at least equally morally corrupt to intervene this time and not next time. Or this time and next time but not the time after that. Leaving aside the slippery slope that intervention would travel, I can hear the aah's now, "You had no right!" "We can handle our own affairs." etc.

So the question is not who to believe - the early church fathers or the biblical record - the question is why would miracles happen during the establishment of the church and not now. I have offered a reasonable explanation for that. What is the criticism of THAT position?


I'm reminded of a believer who pointed out that hundreds of people saw Jesus after his resurrection, and that this constituted hundreds of witnesses. Wrong! It is written hearsay and provides zero evidence to support the assertion that Jesus was resurrected.

You have to believe the Bible is true before it can be used to explain the motivations of God.
http://www.Theofrak.com - because traditional religion is so frakked up
_Hoops
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Re: Family dies holding hands, praying

Post by _Hoops »

It is written hearsay and provides zero evidence to support the assertion that Jesus was resurrected.

It is evidence. It may not be evidence you accept, but it is evidence.

You have to believe the Bible is true before it can be used to explain the motivations of God.

Um... is that supposed to be a groundbreaking analysis?
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