Jaybear Looking for Odd, Strained Argument to Bash Church

[_lulu]

Only in Provo what, lulu?

Yes, you can use a life line Droopy.

What is something that could be said about the victim that would make him look worse at BYU, Provo, UT than:

1. Having sex with his own wife or
2. Or having sex with any woman not his wife?

Time is running out Droopy, I need an answer, your family, church and the whole country are waiting.

[_EAllusion]

"Only in Provo" is clearly a reference to the idea that only in Provo is being outed as a closeted homosexual feeling forced to lead a double-life so horrifying that it allows people to extort them with the threat of it. By contrast in more tolerant areas gays are more likely to feel free to just be gay, so there isn't the leverage for extortion. Jaybear is wrong on this point - Ted Haggards are all over the place, right Droopy? - but it's not hard to understand what's being said.

[_Darth J]

The point is that the Provo police are engaged in an investigation of extortion. I see no evidence that the sexual orientation of the victim or perpetrator are of any concern to them as far as the actual crimes committed.

Dear Droopy,

The victim's sexual orientation and desire to keep same private are what made it possible to extort him. That is absolutely essential to establishing the elements of extortion under Utah law.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_06_040600.htm

76-6-406. Theft by extortion.
(1) A person is guilty of theft if he obtains or exercises control over the property of another by extortion and with a purpose to deprive him thereof.
(2) As used in this section, extortion occurs when a person threatens to:
(a) Cause physical harm in the future to the person threatened or to any other person or to property at any time; or
(b) Subject the person threatened or any other person to physical confinement or restraint; or
(c) Engage in other conduct constituting a crime; or
(d) Accuse any person of a crime or expose him to hatred, contempt, or ridicule; or
(e) Reveal any information sought to be concealed by the person threatened; or
(f) Testify or provide information or withhold testimony or information with respect to another's legal claim or defense; or
(g) Take action as an official against anyone or anything, or withhold official action, or cause such action or withholding; or
(h) Bring about or continue a strike, boycott, or other similar collective action to obtain property which is not demanded or received for the benefit of the group which the actor purports to represent; or
(i) Do any other act which would not in itself substantially benefit him but which would harm substantially any other person with respect to that person's health, safety, business, calling, career, financial condition, reputation, or personal relationships.

Sincerely,

Things-That-Are-Not-Hard-To-Understand

Dear Johnnie,

The police do not care whether he is homosexual or not. That is peripheral to the case. Their entire concern is with the crime of extortion.

Thanks for trying Droopy, but no, his sexual orientation is the essential fact in the case. That's what he was being extorted about. Without the victim being ashamed about his sexuality, there is no extortion.

If he was heterosexual and it was a female extorting him, the crime would be the same. The perpetrator is not being prosecuted for being homosexual, but for extorting sexual favors from the victim.

You're mixed up about the elements of extortion. The issue is not the alleged perpetrator's sexual orientation, but the victim's. It is establishing that the victim had information that he did not want to be disclosed that is required to prove extortion. In this case, that information was the victim's homosexuality.

Jaybear was fishing for an anti-Mormon "issue," and nothing more, just like you do here 24/7.

Anti-Mormon issues are not hard to find, what with the Church's own statements and actions, its colossal hubris, and the things that its ostensibly faithful members post on the internet.

[Guest]

Only in Provo what, lulu?

Yes, you can use a life line Droopy.

What is something that could be said about the victim that would make him look worse at BYU, Provo, UT than:

1. Having sex with his own wife or
2. Or having sex with any woman not his wife?

Time is running out Droopy, I need an answer, your family, church and the whole country are waiting.

I'm sorry, time has run out Droopy (mom says I have to get ready for bed now).

The correct answer to: in Provo UT what looks worse than sex with your wife or sex with any woman not your wife . . .

Gay male sex, the correct answer is gay male sex, Droopy.

I'm sorry Droopy, you have lost your winnings, the board now shows zero and you are off the show.

What's that? No, no, there are no parting gifts, lovely or otherwise.

Good night and join us next week when we will ask a Mormon Deacon what hand do you use to

Off stage: that looked bad for them, millions of dollars worth of "And I'm a Mormon" ad money down the drain. But I hear that church is loaded, maybe they'll be able to bounce back.

[_RayAgostini]

Did someone say Only in Provo?

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

Did someone say Only in Provo?

Ignorance is bliss. Thanks for the reminder.

[_RayAgostini]

Ignorance is bliss. Thanks for the reminder.

Sort of reminds me of my childhood, which was bliss, but it was still real. I think I'd rather have died at ten, than come to understand just how "happy and fulfilling" that "knowledge" is.

Two things life will never logically explain are faith and love, yet they are the essence of life. Mathematical formulae and logical positivism never brought lasting meaning or happiness.

And maybe Stephen Gould was right?.

[_Jersey Girl]

Suitable for framing

Two things life will never logically explain are faith and love, yet they are the essence of life.

[_Tarski]

Two things life will never logically explain are faith and love, yet they are the essence of life.

Sorry but I think this is a rather shallow bit of supposed obviousness. In fact, it isn't clear what exactly is being claimed.

1) What does it mean for "life" to explain something? (huh?)

2) By "logically" we do not generally mean to refer to logical positivism or mathematics. Usually the idea is to make rational sense out of something. I think this can be done for both love and faith if one means that their existence and social function can be elucidated in broadly scientific or at least rational terms. That such an elucidation leaves more to be understood is hardly surprising since the same is true even for the foundations of logic and mathematics themselves.

3) I reject the idea that faith (as in religious faith, or faith in the supernatural) is the essence of life. Even if I had a positive attitude toward such faith, I would still have to ask what it really means for something to be an "essence".

Mathematical formulae and logical positivism never brought lasting meaning or happiness.

The reference to logical positivism is rather odd. Logical positivism is a very specific past philosophical movement not accepted these days by even the most hardnosed scientists, atheists, philosophers, or professional logicians--even when they know what the heck it is.

As far as mathematics and lasting meaning let me just point out two things:

1) Mathematical truths are both beautiful and as eternal as anything we know of. The beauty part is far beyond what can be guessed by folks on the outside--even your average "math major".

2) Mathematics has brought a wealth of meaning into the lives of a great many people including Archimedes, Leibniz, Newton, Gauss, Euler, Fermat, Grothendieck, and Tarski to name a few of millions. It stands as one of mankind's greatest achievements.
On the other hand, by comparison, religion does not seem to provide lasting happiness as far as I can see. Some victims of religion might see my point. There are a lot of stinking flies buzzing around organized religion. Consider, for one example, that mathematicians and scientists don't have a disproportionate problem with molesting children. The priest-child abuse connection/correlation on the other hand is quite real. Mathematical zealots are also not known to be disproportionately aggressive or even violent in their promotion of what they love.
Faith can make people do crazy and often disgusting things. I haven't noticed an analogous peculiar problem among those who study mathematics and logic.

Which do you think has brought me more happiness without excessive associated pain; Wives? children? Faith? Or....mathematics?
What has remained constant in meaning and truth? What has given me a glimpse of the eternal and a taste of the profound?
Can you guess?

[_Droopy]

What is something that could be said about the victim that would make him look worse at BYU, Provo, UT than:

1. Having sex with his own wife or
2. Or having sex with any woman not his wife?

Time is running out Droopy, I need an answer, your family, church and the whole country are waiting.

Answer the question clearly, and consisely (adduce an actual claim or argument), or slink away wrapped in the holy folds of your own (self assumed) intellectual pomposity and call it a day.

Head games bore me.