Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

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_MsJack
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _MsJack »

To some extent, I agree with Droopy (shocking, I know). Joanna tends to stretch things to try and make it sound like the church is becoming more progressive than it is. Remember when she was thundering "Openly Gay Mormon Appointed to LDS Church Leadership Position" when a California ward selected an openly gay executive secretary? As I said at the time, I never would have thought of executive secretary as an "LDS church leadership position." Administrative position, yes. Leadership? Not really.

My reasons for disliking this sort of Brooks-style massaging of the events are different from Droopy's. I think such fanfare over non-change or negligible change is a hindrance to real change for the LDS church. As David Clark (Aristotle Smith) said on my blog in regards to the Bott stuff:

Scapegoating [Bott] for saying things that General Authorities have said and never repudiated is really going to provide nice cover for future scandals. “What, you say that the LDS church is racist? No way! Look what we did to that racist bastard Bott…” This will of course lessen the need to actually, you know, do something to fix the actual issue. Deflection is always easier and cheaper than dealing with the issue itself.

So, in summary, to all of the liberal Mormons looking to crucify Randy Bott, congratulations on contributing to the problem.

I like Joanna and I do think she's brilliant. But this is one of the less-brilliant things that she does.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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_moksha
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _moksha »

Blixa wrote:But who would fardles bear?


Someone who took the name Zoobie much too literally.
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_Drifting
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _Drifting »

MsJack wrote:To some extent, I agree with Droopy (shocking, I know). Joanna tends to stretch things to try and make it sound like the church is becoming more progressive than it is. Remember when she was thundering "Openly Gay Mormon Appointed to LDS Church Leadership Position" when a California ward selected an openly gay executive secretary? As I said at the time, I never would have thought of executive secretary as an "LDS church leadership position." Administrative position, yes. Leadership? Not really.

My reasons for disliking this sort of Brooks-style massaging of the events are different from Droopy's. I think such fanfare over non-change or negligible change is a hindrance to real change for the LDS church. As David Clark (Aristotle Smith) said on my blog in regards to the Bott stuff:

David Clark wrote:Scapegoating [Bott] for saying things that General Authorities have said and never repudiated is really going to provide nice cover for future scandals. “What, you say that the LDS church is racist? No way! Look what we did to that racist bastard Bott…” This will of course lessen the need to actually, you know, do something to fix the actual issue. Deflection is always easier and cheaper than dealing with the issue itself.

So, in summary, to all of the liberal Mormons looking to crucify Randy Bott, congratulations on contributing to the problem.

I like Joanna and I do think she's brilliant. But this is one of the less-brilliant things that she does.


I agree with the propensity (word of the day challenge completed) for overstatement that you point out. For instance 'Openly Gay' turns out to mean 'Celibate Mormon Man With Desire To Be Heterosexual Struggling With Same Sex Attraction'.

I also agree that Brooks tends to oversell the Church as 'changing' when in reality it is still forging ahead with a policy of violent inertia (phrase of the day challenge completed).

I also agree that Bott was scapegoated - what did he say that senior Church Leaders haven't already explicitly stated? (Previously Unanswered Question Re-Asked challenge of the day completed).
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_MsJack
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _MsJack »

Drifting wrote:I also agree that Bott was scapegoated - what did he say that senior Church Leaders haven't already explicitly stated? (Previously Unanswered Question Re-Asked challenge of the day completed).

Plus a chunk of what he told the press (that blacks are the descendants of Ham) is in the Institute manual for one of his courses.

I can think of few things more ghastly than a Doctrine and Covenants teacher sharing with the press things that are in the manual that he's supposed to be teaching to hundreds of students every year.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Morley
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _Morley »

MsJack wrote:
Drifting wrote:I also agree that Bott was scapegoated - what did he say that senior Church Leaders haven't already explicitly stated? (Previously Unanswered Question Re-Asked challenge of the day completed).

Plus a chunk of what he told the press (that blacks are the descendants of Ham) is in the Institute manual for one of his courses.

I can think of few things more ghastly than a Doctrine and Covenants teacher sharing with the press things that are in the manual that he's supposed to be teaching to hundreds of students every year.


This.
_consiglieri
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _consiglieri »

MsJack wrote:I can think of few things more ghastly than a Doctrine and Covenants teacher sharing with the press things that are in the manual that he's supposed to be teaching to hundreds of students every year.


Outside the temple, there could hardly be a better example of esoteric versus exoteric teaching in the LDS Church.

Made only more poignant by the fact (?) that Professor Bott is likely to be disciplined for saying it.

Though doubtless any discipline will not be for what he said, but that he said it without getting permission from his higher-ups.

But as you point out, why should anybody need permission to say what is in the official and correlated Institute Manual?

I think Bott has been doing this so long he honestly did not know what kind of firestorm he was igniting.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Chap
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _Chap »

MsJack wrote:
Drifting wrote:I also agree that Bott was scapegoated - what did he say that senior Church Leaders haven't already explicitly stated? (Previously Unanswered Question Re-Asked challenge of the day completed).

Plus a chunk of what he told the press (that blacks are the descendants of Ham) is in the Institute manual for one of his courses.

I can think of few things more ghastly than a Doctrine and Covenants teacher sharing with the press things that are in the manual that he's supposed to be teaching to hundreds of students every year.


Yup. The bit you reference begins:

Official Declaration 2
“Every Faithful, Worthy Man”
Historical Background

From the dispensation of Adam until the dispensation of the fulness of times, there has been a group of people who have not been allowed to hold the priesthood of God. The scriptural basis for this policy is Abraham 1:21–27 . The full reason for the denial has been kept hidden by the Lord, and one is left to assume that He will make it known in His own due time.


And Abraham 1:21–2 reads:

21 Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the aloins of bHam, and was a partaker of the blood of the cCanaanites by birth.

22 From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the aCanaanites was preserved in the land.

23 The land of aEgypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;

24 When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.

25 Now the first agovernment of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

26 Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that aorder established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the bblessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood.

27 Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of aPriesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain bclaim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;


That seems more or less a slam dunk. Even while rescinding the ban, the church still draws attention to the racist basis of the original prohibition. (Sorry, 'lineagist' - so that's all right then ...)
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _Buffalo »

I think Droopy should be the alternative high profile media Mormon. The yin to Brooks' yang. Just think how much the church's stock would rise. :lol:
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _Droopy »

Darth J wrote:
Droopy wrote:As Buckley once said, that which is not moving to the Right, is moving to the Left. There is no true neutrality or inertia.


So are you a fascist or an anarchist, since the only possible choices are the eventual arrival at one of these two extremes?



You can't go there philosophically or historically. You are operating on the old Popular Front mythology of the two poles along a continuum theory of political ideology. You need a branching family tree as your template here, not a horizontal line.

Fascism is a heretical or schismatic form of leftism, and hence should be placed on the Left with Nazism and internationalist socialism as a sibling relation, in an ideological sense. White identity ideology, the Ku Klux Klan, and other similar beliefs, share strong associations with the Left but are also hostile to it on other grounds, and so will be placed on the tree relative to those relational dynamics.

The "Right" includes classical liberalism and its modern forms (modern conservatism and libertarianism) and moves all the way to libertarian anarchism. Cold War era "liberalism" would fall somewhere on the tree between and on the branches of both sides. These are all, again, siblings, cousins, and uncles. The major division between Left and Right is in the idea of limited government, unalienable, individual rights, including property rights, and the fundamental idea of collectivism as over against the free individual within community.
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Re: Joanna Brooks Plays Fast and Loose With Church Statement

Post by _Droopy »

I like Joanna and I do think she's brilliant.


She appears to be an academic intellectual of above average intelligence capable of doing graduate level intellectual work (although her areas of specialization - woman's studies, and politically oriented literary studies, do bespeak a perhaps less than deeply concentrated intellectual capacity or temperament), but I'm not at all sure I see "brilliant" as an apt designation for her thinking.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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