Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
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Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
in my opinion, an excellent response by Dan to the apologists
http://signaturebooks.com/2012/03/book- ... revisited/
http://signaturebooks.com/2012/03/book- ... revisited/
Last edited by Guest on Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vogel response to First Vision apologetics
Thanks Joe!
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
Thanks, Joe! I also posted an announcement on MADD.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
Dan Vogel wrote:Thanks, Joe! I also posted an announcement on MADD.
The 2nd account came from what was probably John Whitmer’s final interview before his death. It’s funny how all these witnesses who leave the church keep reaffirming their testimonies on their deathbed. What does that tell you? Anyway, this Q&A was published a few weeks after John’s death.
Q - I am aware that your name is affixed to the testimony in the Book of Mormon that you saw the plates?
A - It is so, and that testimony is true.
Q - Did you handle the plates with your hands?
A - I did so!
Q - Then they were a material substance?
A - Yes, as material as anything can be.
Q - Were they heavy to lift?
A - Yes, and as you know gold is a heavy metal: they were very heavy.
Q - How big were the leaves?
A - So far as I recollect, 8 by 6 or seven inches.
Q - Were the leaves thick?
A - Yes, just so thick, that characters could be engraven on both sides.
Q - How were the leaves joined together?
A - In three rings, each one in the shape of a D with the straight line towards the center.
Q - In what place did you see the plates?
A - In Joseph Smith’s house; he had them there.
Q - Did you see them covered with a cloth?
A - No. He handed them uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us.
http://www.moroni10.com/witnesses/John_Whitmer.html
I don't know Dan, this seems pretty convincing. John saw the plates and handled them.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith
We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
Joseph Smith
We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
I agree why me. To discredit the witnesses, all that is going is these "scholars" are revising history to prove that the statements the witnesses subscribed to did not really mean what they said. And since the witnesses are dead, we can't ask for further clarifications. It is a ridiculous tactic, but not unexpected.
As far as the believing Mormon should be concerned, it doesn't matter. You really shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon because of these witnesses anyway. You should believe it because God told you to believe it. And that is the only legitimate test.
As far as the believing Mormon should be concerned, it doesn't matter. You really shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon because of these witnesses anyway. You should believe it because God told you to believe it. And that is the only legitimate test.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
Tobin wrote:I agree why me. To discredit the witnesses, all that is going is these "scholars" are revising history to prove that the statements the witnesses subscribed to did not really mean what they said. And since the witnesses are dead, we can't ask for further clarifications. It is a ridiculous tactic, but not unexpected.
As far as the believing Mormon should be concerned, it doesn't matter. You really shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon because of these witnesses anyway. You should believe it because God told you to believe it. And that is the only legitimate test.
Witnesses who give contradictory statements aren't really very reliable witnesses, are they? And regardless of whether they saw the plates or handled them under a cloth, they were in no position to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true and the plates authentic.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
These men had ample opportunity to give statements refuting what they said. And yes, I know the new excuse is people just didn't do that. Oh really?Buffalo wrote:Witnesses who give contradictory statements aren't really very reliable witnesses, are they? And regardless of whether they saw the plates or handled them under a cloth, they were in no position to know whether or not the Book of Mormon was true and the plates authentic.
And don't worry Buffalo, you'll be a witness too. It is just a matter of time.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
Tobin wrote:These men had ample opportunity to give statements refuting what they said. And yes, I know the new excuse is people just didn't do that. Oh really?
Do you give the same credibility to witnesses of alien abductions?
Tobin wrote:And don't worry Buffalo, you'll be a witness too. It is just a matter of time.
Not bloody likely.

Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
You can see God any time you want to Buffalo, if you humble yourself and truly seek him. Then you can know as surely as these gentlemen did that the Book of Mormon is true.Buffalo wrote:Do you give the same credibility to witnesses of alien abductions?Tobin wrote:These men had ample opportunity to give statements refuting what they said. And yes, I know the new excuse is people just didn't do that. Oh really?
Oh, I don't know if it will happen while you are alive, but you will see God and know this really happened.Buffalo wrote:Not bloody likely.Tobin wrote:And don't worry Buffalo, you'll be a witness too. It is just a matter of time.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
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Re: Vogel response to witnesses apologetics
Tobin wrote:You can see God any time you want to Buffalo.
I agree. With a little help from

Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.