Tobin wrote:I agree why me. To discredit the witnesses, all that is going is these "scholars" are revising history to prove that the statements the witnesses subscribed to did not really mean what they said. And since the witnesses are dead, we can't ask for further clarifications. It is a ridiculous tactic, but not unexpected.
As far as the believing Mormon should be concerned, it doesn't matter. You really shouldn't believe the Book of Mormon because of these witnesses anyway. You should believe it because God told you to believe it. And that is the only legitimate test.
The proof is in the deathbed testimonies of the witnesses. When one is faced with meeting their maker with a lie, one may come clean. But these witnesses did not come clean. They saw what they saw and that experience was powerful enough that all dabbled in Mormonism or offshoots of Mormonism.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Tobin wrote:You can see God any time you want to Buffalo, if you humble yourself and truly seek him. Then you can know as surely as these gentlemen did that the Book of Mormon is true.
How would you know since you never sought God. Why is it that all the other religious kooks who claim seeing different Gods, aliens can't agree. Most of us have sought God, and even had spiritual expereinces. by the way hallucinations are common, even group ones happen. :)
Ah, but I do know. I've seen God Themis. Your assertions to the contrary. Also, you are incorrect about my seeking and searching for the truth. Bear in mind I was raised a Mormon and served a mission. Do you really suppose I did not seek the Lord during all that time? Now, did I receive an answer when I wanted one? No, but the point is I did eventually find one and was prepared to accept the truth.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
why me wrote:When one is faced with meeting their maker with a lie, one may come clean.
CFR.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
John Murphy interviewed David Whitmer in June, 1880.
When asked in 1880 for a description of the angel who showed him the plates, Whitmer replied that the angel "had no appearance or shape." Asked by the interviewer how he then could bear testimony that he had seen and heard an angel, Whitmer replied, "Have you never had impressions?" To which the interviewer responded, "Then you had impressions as the Quaker when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience, a feeling?" "Just so," replied Whitmer. Whitmer interview with John Murphy, June 1880, in EMD5: 63.
Whitmer was a rube, just like the other yokels of the time.
David Whitmer was excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1838 for turning against Church members and joining in persecuting them. Though he never returned to the Church in his lifetime, he never denied the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, and even publicly defended it near the end of his life in the Richmond, Missouri, Conservator on March 25, 1881: The Book of Mormon“Unto all Nations, Kindreds, Tongues and People, unto whom these presents shall come: . . . I wish now, standing as it were, in the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once [and] for all to make this public statement: That I have never at any time denied that testimony [of the Book of Mormon] or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that book, as one of the Three Witnesses. Those who know me best well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all my statements as then made and published. “He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear;” it was no delusion; what is written is written, and he that readeth let him understand. “And if any man doubt, should he not carefully and honestly read and understand the same before presuming to sit in judgment and condemning the light, which shineth in darkness, and showeth the way of eternal life as pointed out by the unerring hand of God?” In the Spirit of Christ, who hath said: “Follow thou me, for I am the life, the light and the way,” I submit this statement to the world; God in whom I trust being my judge as to the sincerity of my motives and the faith and hope that is in me of eternal life. My sincere desire is that the world may be benefited by this plain and simple statement of the truth. And all the honor to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen!”
The deathbed testimony tops all others as claimed by this person or that person.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Yeah, this was a solid response. It continues to baffle me that the apologists have chosen this particular issue as a key battleground. I know that Dan Peterson has said that he'd like to write a book on this topic, which makes me wonder if the issue continues to persist merely because DCP thinks it ought to.
Ultimately, though, I don't understand why they don't treat Vogel's analysis as something worth embracing: it still would basically allow for faith, it would just open up the account to more possibilities. In other words: I don't really see how this is much different from, say, the recent blacks and the priesthood controversy. Why don't they just say, "We don't know for sure what the Witnesses saw?" I guess at this point, they are so entrenched that to make that move, it would look (and perhaps feel?) like defeat, but the kinds of things they're arguing--as Vogel clearly shows--are really pretty awful.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
why me wrote:When one is faced with meeting their maker with a lie, one may come clean.
CFR.
Read the word 'may' come clean. When it comes to fooling god with a lie about the experience as the witnesses had or didn't have, most would come clean to protect their soul from the fires of hell which is what many protestants and catholics believed would happen. Hell was real in the 19th century. With the last breath some would have come clean.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
As important as your personal spiritual experiences are to you, they are not relevant to the present topic. Do you have something meaningful to say that's not testimony-based?
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not. Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
Dan Vogel wrote:Tobin, As important as your personal spiritual experiences are to you, they are not relevant to the present topic. Do you have something meaningful to say that's not testimony-based?
Dan, I'm not addressing you. I'm responding to Themis who seems to like to carry things into adjacent threads for some reason.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Ah, but I do know. I've seen God Themis. Your assertions to the contrary. Also, you are incorrect about my seeking and searching for the truth. Bear in mind I was raised a Mormon and served a mission. Do you really suppose I did not seek the Lord during all that time? Now, did I receive an answer when I wanted one? No, but the point is I did eventually find one and was prepared to accept the truth.
LOL You think you have seen God, but then you want to state that buffalo can see God even though you admit you never did when you were seeking. Only when you were apostate and not looking for God did you have your expereince. Therefore you can't know if others will get to see God(assuming he/she/they exist). Remember the last part of my last post to you. :)
why me wrote: Read the word 'may' come clean. When it comes to fooling god with a lie about the experience as the witnesses had or didn't have, most would come clean to protect their soul from the fires of hell which is what many protestants and catholics believed would happen. Hell was real in the 19th century. With the last breath some would have come clean.
Do you give the same respect to the statements of Mormon apostates who continued to testify their opinions about Joseph Smith and Mormonism even to their dying breath?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo