For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

[_Themis]

I'm not entirely familiar with what Joseph Smith claimed about Facsimile Number 3.

Then you might want to familiarize yourself with it and rest of the Book of Abraham. :)

The argument seems to be that Smith said it represented some things and modern Egyptologists now say it represents entirely different things. Does that mean Smith was wrong, or is it possible the facsimile might have more than one meaning? It wouldn't be the first time theologians postulated a statement in scripture had more than one meaning.

I all for it, but you will need to make an argument of how and why it should be viewed this way. So far no one has other then to assert it. Joseph claimed to be able to translate Egyptian.

And even if we could know conclusively that Facsimile Number 3 had one and only one meaning, would the fact that Smith therefore made a mistake make him a false prophet? Does one become a false prophet the first time one makes a single mistake?

One? LOL How about a host of mistakes with the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc.

I guess I don't look at prophets that way. I consider someone a prophet if God wants me to consider him a prophet.

Or maybe you have mistaken it with what you want, and your body is capable of producing. just a though, and one I find many members have never thought about or taken seriously.

[_KevinSim]

:cool:

You may eventually make your way out. I will pray that it happens with the least amount of pain possible.

MCB, was this directed at me?

For the record, I've already planned a "way out" that would involve practically no pain at all. Well, there'd be some pain. I've got a lot of friendships with devout Latter-day Saints that would give me pain if they died, or if those Latter-day Saints were to feel they couldn't talk to me as much as they have in the past. But the way I look at it, my departure would involve me meeting new people who would give me just as fulfilling (if not more so) friendships than I had had in the past.

Nonetheless, all that said, why would I want to make my "way out"?

I have a firm faith that someone is in control of the universe, who is actively involved in preserving some good things into the eternities, and I am determined that no matter what I discover in the future, I am going to maintain that firm faith. I am 100% committed to belief in that someone (that I call God), and am adamant that that faith will never sway.

If you hope that I will someday make my "way out" of the LDS Church with its teachings on that God, just what do you consider to be an alternative to those teachings about God? If you hope that someday I will leave Mormonism, what theology do you hope I will leave it for? I'm not ever going to leave the LDS Church for nothing. As long as it provides the best explanation regarding the things of God I'm going to stick with it. What else can someone with a conscience do?

[_Themis]

We will never know how he may have really thought, but he certainly makes people wonder what he really believed.

In reading his testimony in the Smoot hearings, I came to the conclusion that polygamy was his ticket to happiness.

Multiple sex partners. That's many men's dream come true.

[_Themis]

Just curious to the critics who know the truth, do you engage missionaries? Do you fear bursting their fragile worlds with the truth?

I always wonder about this, but if they don't talk about it, neither do I.

[Guest]

Fence Sitter, are you implying that being educated hinders someone from seriously considering being a part of the LDS Church? If so, why do you think so?

Granted if one is educated and therefore understands the reasons why scientists think life evolved on this planet over hundreds or tens of millions of years, and understands why geologists think the planet actually existed for billions of years, and then that one came across missionaries who told that someone the Earth is only six thousand years old, that might give that one pause. But it seems to me the reasons for believing in a good deity are there regardless of how old the Earth is, and the explanations the LDS missionaries give for how the investigator can find out the will of God simply make sense, once again regardless of how old the Earth is.

My use of the term ignorant was overboard. I was looking to describe people who have less exposure (education and life experiences?) to a wider variety of beliefs due to age, education and economic factors. I do not think that general education hinders consideration of the LDS Church significantly more or less than most other religions though I do believe the LDS Church is unique in that more of its truth claims are subject to empirical study than most other religions. My point regarding what the missionaries are supposed to do is that they are supposed to avoid conflict, they should not be out there arguing with someone on how many wives Joseph Smith had or if God and Jesus are distinct beings. When they encounter people like that they should just leave their testimony and move on.

Generally I think that education levels have a very strong affect on religious belief. For example if you were to look in depth at the issues surrounding Joseph Smith's translation of the papyri it would change how you viewed Joseph Smith as a translator. I do not believe it would convince you he could not translate but it might change your perspective of his abilities to actually read Egyptian and what he meant by 'translate'. This in turn might make you re-evaluate the Book of Abraham.

Science absolutely does not eliminate a belief in God but certainly it does force us to revise our concepts of him (her/it?) especially when we are trying to force preconceived notions of religion into scientific theories. I am not sure why one must assume God exists based on our inability to provide naturalist explanations for everything. What is the difference between the scientist admitting he cannot explain everything and the theist admitting he does not fully understand God?

Thanks for your questions.

[_KevinSim]

I doubt you understand what many critics really do understand.

Themis, what do those "many critics" understand, that you doubt that I understand?

[_MCB]

I have a firm faith that someone is in control of the universe, who is actively involved in preserving some good things into the eternities, and I am determined that no matter what I discover in the future, I am going to maintain that firm faith. I am 100% committed to belief in that someone (that I call God), and am adamant that that faith will never sway.

I generally agree with those beliefs. I am Catholic. It distresses me that so many LDS, when they leave the LDS faith, become agnostic. Rather normal to do so, given the warped perception of God that exists among many LDS. Too many stay in that position.

[_Themis]

I doubt you understand what many critics really do understand.

Themis, what do those "many critics" understand, that you doubt that I understand?

You don't understand that many critics do understand LDS theology, since many of them were believers at one time.

[Guest]

One? LOL How about a host of mistakes with the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc.

How many mistakes does someone have to make, before we can be sure God hasn't
chosen that someone as God's spokesman to the world?

Or maybe you have mistaken it with what you want, and your body is capable of producing. just a though, and one I find many members have never thought about or taken seriously.

Oh, I've thought about it a lot, and taken very seriously. For the record, though, my conclusions about the LDS Church are not what I want. As I explained to MCB above I've thought a lot about what I would do if I left the LDS Church. I know precisely what I'd do; that is what "I want." That would solve an enormous number of the problems in my life.

But I lack one thing. I lack knowing that God wants me to take that course, that God wants me to leave the LDS Church. Well, there's also the little problem that I promised my wife that I wouldn't leave the LDS Church. But if I could discover somehow that God does want me to leave it, then my promise to my wife would be secondary; I never promised my wife that I would go against the will of God. If I could know somehow that God does want me to leave the LDS Church, I assure you I would leave it, my promise to my wife notwithstanding.

[_Themis]

I have a firm faith that someone is in control of the universe, who is actively involved in preserving some good things into the eternities, and I am determined that no matter what I discover in the future, I am going to maintain that firm faith. I am 100% committed to belief in that someone (that I call God), and am adamant that that faith will never sway.

I generally agree with those beliefs. I am Catholic. It distresses me that so many LDS, when they leave the LDS faith, become agnostic. Rather normal to do so, given the warped perception of God that exists among many LDS. Too many stay in that position.

For good reason. Christianity doesn't provide any better reasons to believe, and I doubt God really cares whether we believe she exists when she doesn't even spend to time to talk to us. :)