For the critics... what do you say to missionaries?

[_Themis]

How many mistakes does someone have to make, before we can be sure God hasn't
chosen that someone as God's spokesman to the world?

Don't get caught up in numbers, it is always the kind of mistakes one makes that shows us Joseph was making up his religion. That the number is high just adds to the obviousness of it.

Oh, I've thought about it a lot, and taken very seriously. For the record, though, my conclusions about the LDS Church are not what I want. As I explained to MCB above I've thought a lot about what I would do if I left the LDS Church. I know precisely what I'd do; that is what "I want." That would solve an enormous number of the problems in my life.

But I lack one thing. I lack knowing that God wants me to take that course, that God wants me to leave the LDS Church. Well, there's also the little problem that I promised my wife that I wouldn't leave the LDS Church. But if I could discover somehow that God does want me to leave it, then my promise to my wife would be secondary; I never promised my wife that I would go against the will of God. If I could know somehow that God does want me to leave the LDS Church, I assure you I would leave it, my promise to my wife notwithstanding.

I am not saying our bodies will give us what we think, at least consciously, we want all the time, but then you did give a few details that you don't want to leave the church.

[_MCB]

She speaks to us through the Bible. For example, Jesus' social teachings and the concept of original sin. There is so much pain in this world because people don't care about the pain of others, and don't do anything about it.

Instead, Mormons try to explain pain in terms of less valiant in the pre-existence, or the sins of their ancestors, or punishment on this earth for their sins (not saying that there should be no consequences for our actions). Pain in this world is not the result of a vengeful god, or a god who is so limited that he could not create matter out of nothing. The Mormon god was made over in the image of man.

We can realize that the growth we can experience as a result of understanding our own suffering can reduce the time we spend in purgatory. As well as what we get in telling others about a loving God, because our love is evidence that God exists.

[_KevinSim]

I am not sure why one must assume God exists based on our inability to provide naturalist explanations for everything.

For the record I don't "assume God exists based on" my "inability to provide naturalist explanations for everything." That's the God of the Gaps, and the problem with that God is that over time the Gaps keep getting smaller, and there's no way to guarantee that those Gaps won't eventually disappear entirely.

I believe God exists because my mother raised me to believe that God exists, she clearly believed God exists herself, and I've never seen any compelling reason to believe God doesn't exist.

Well, that might be a little simplistic. Perhaps to describe it better, something I've thought recently is that the work of God must go forth, whether an actual deity exists to carry that work forward or not. I am incapable of carrying on the work of God by myself, so I have chosen to believe in the good God my mother taught me about, someone who is preserving some good things into the eternities, and I have partnered with that God (and with everyone else who has also partnered with Him), to together carry out that work.

Looked at another way, I don't want to live in a universe that a good God doesn't control, and therefore I have faith that a good God does control this universe.

What is the difference between the scientist admitting he cannot explain everything and the theist admitting he does not fully understand God?

There's not a huge difference. I think it's actually pretty mature to realize there may be many aspects of God we don't understand. On the other hand, I don't think it's extremely hard to figure out some of the basic characteristics of God.

Thanks for your questions.

You're welcome!

[_KevinSim]

I generally agree with those beliefs. I am Catholic. It distresses me that so many LDS, when they leave the LDS faith, become agnostic. Rather normal to do so, given the warped perception of God that exists among many LDS. Too many stay in that position.

I don't see how the LDS perception of God being warped has anything to do with it. In fact, quite the contrary; once someone has experienced faith in God as the LDS Church describes God, every other faith in God seems warped, so what alternative does an ex-Mormon have but to become agnostic or atheist?

I don't see that happening to me; I am completely committed to the existence of a good God regardless of anything I might discover. But I can certainly understand why other Latter-day Saints might leave the LDS Church and become agnostic. What alternative do they have?

[_MCB]

Well, you just go on being a happy heretic-- better than some of the other alternatives.

[_KevinSim]

You don't understand that many critics do understand LDS theology, since many of them were believers at one time.

Being a believer doesn't necessarily mean one understands the theology.

Themis, what do they understand about the theology that you think I don't understand?

[_Themis]

There is so much pain in this world because people don't care about the pain of others, and don't do anything about it.

I think you are wrong here, and I think the world is better at this then in the past.

[_Themis]

Being a believer doesn't necessarily mean one understands the theology.

Sure.

Themis, what do they understand about the theology that you think I don't understand?

You tried to suggest the critic does not understand LDS theology, yet many of them were members or believers at one time. You would need to show they don't understand, which I think you can't do. I go with the evidence both looking at the physical and spiritual. I don't think believing because my parents do is good enough.

[_Themis]

Looked at another way, I don't want to live in a universe that a good God doesn't control, and therefore I have faith that a good God does control this universe.

It's not like you have a choice, other then to believe because you want to. I choose not to worry about it since there is not good evidence to suggest I should, and I am talking about spiritual as well as physical.

[_MCB]

I think you are wrong here, and I think the world is better at this then in the past.

There is always room for improvement.